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This is enough to make you sick...
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| yamahafan1000 |
Its getting to be regoddamndiculous.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/artic...UGPJJA66348.DTL
Quote: BofA: Train your replacement, or no severance pay for you
David Lazarus
Friday, June 9, 2006
Bank of America has been steadily moving thousands of tech jobs to India. The latest to go are about 100 positions that handle BofA's internal tech support.
While many of the bank's Bay Area techies accept the inevitability of their jobs heading abroad, what rankles them is the fact that, in many cases, they're being told they have to first train the Indians who are getting their gigs.
"If people want their severance packages, they have to train their replacements," a senior engineer at one of BofA's Bay Area facilities told me. "There's nothing in writing that says this -- the bank's been careful about that. But it's made clear at meetings what we're supposed to do."
Shirley Norton, a BofA spokeswoman, confirmed that while workers aren't being explicitly told they have to train their replacements or risk losing severance pay, they are being instructed that severance pay is contingent on satisfactorily completing their jobs.
Completing their jobs, in turn, can include training replacements from India, she said.
"I know that's parsing things a bit," Norton acknowledged. "What we ask associates to do as part of getting severance is that they stay on the job until the job is transitioned.
"It's a common practice when your job is being transferred from one person to another that you train the new person," she added. "We expect our people to stay until their jobs are consolidated."
Making workers train someone from India to take their jobs away isn't unique to BofA. Other U.S. companies reportedly have done the same in recent years.
But BofA stands out because it acknowledged earlier this year that it understands how much the practice offends its U.S. employees.
Barbara Desoer, BofA's chief technology exec, told BusinessWeek magazine in January that she was aware how much grumbling it caused when workers at the bank's Concord technology center were told they'd have to bring their Indian replacements up to speed before being shown the door.
"It caused us to make a greater commitment to our associates," she said. "It caused us to make a larger commitment to explaining the context of changes happening in the marketplace in advance of (changes) happening."
But it apparently didn't cause BofA to stop doing it.
"We've seen a bunch of Indians come through (the Bay Area)," the senior engineer said. He asked that his name be withheld because he's seeking another position within the bank.
"They're very open about it," he said. "They're here to learn our jobs and then leave. Some go back to India, and some settle in Charlotte, where the headquarters is."
Why would BofA hire Indians to work in the United States?
"Because they don't actually work for Bank of America," the engineer replied. "They work for Infosys Technologies and Tata Consultancy Services, which are both in India. They do the work at half the cost of what a U.S. worker gets paid."
Many contractors
BofA's Norton was unable to comment on the bank's contracts with Indian outsourcing firms. But she acknowledged that BofA has many Indian employees and contractors working in the United States.
"There are a lot, in a number of positions," Norton said. "We have been pleased with the quality of the results, the cost savings and the fact that it allows us to have a 24-hour clock."
She said BofA estimates that outsourcing has allowed the bank to save about $100 million over the past five years.
In 2004, BofA opened a subsidiary in India to process transactions and handle other operations. It now employs about 2,000 workers at three different sites.
The bank has also outsourced numerous jobs to Indian companies like Infosys and Tata. "It's a good business practice if you have the right processes in place," Norton said.
Representatives of Infosys and Tata declined to comment.
BofA's increasing reliance on Indian workers was made evident in a 40-minute presentation given last year to some of the bank's U.S. tech employees. BofA distributed DVDs of the presentation to managers companywide in April as part of a new program called Culture Connections.
One of the DVDs made its way into my hands this week, along with supporting materials provided to managers.
The DVD shows a roomful of about a dozen bank employees being told by a blond-haired American manager (who is wearing purple, Indian-looking clothes) that the presentation will assist them in "understanding the Indian culture and who the Indian is."
This is important, the manager continues, because of "the dependency we have on our teammates who are either here in the U.S. who come from India, or who we interact with on a daily basis who reside in India."
She then introduces the presenter, Shiva Subramaniam, who has traveled from India to give an overview of India's culture, including how the country has "specific gods for specific concepts," and how "it's almost impossible to look at an Indian and not associate him with the game of cricket."
He shows a series of slides during the presentation. Clearly visible at the bottom of the screen are the words "Tata Consultancy Services."
Working with Indians
BofA employees were summoned to "team huddles" last month to learn more about working with Indians. The meeting leader's guide for the get-togethers said the goal is "to build a diverse and inclusive workplace and to prepare associates to meet the challenge of working globally."
A "manager message map" for the presentation on India says that "all associates will be expected to participate in this learning experience" by the end of June.
Norton confirmed that nearly all of BofA's 200,000 workers are expected to sit through the presentation.
"We're dealing with a global customer base and a global employee base," she said. "So we've started a program for people to understand international business cultures."
Exporting more work
The senior engineer said many bank workers suspect that the Culture Connections program is intended primarily to smooth the way toward exporting more work to India.
It's also possible that BofA is responding to a 2003 incident in which one of the bank's software programmers in Concord killed himself after his job was outsourced to India.
Meanwhile, there's growing buzz in banking circles that a new focus on attracting Latino customers in the United States will lead to an increased number of call centers being outsourced to Latin America.
BofA's Norton said the India presentation was only the first in a series of a Culture Connections programs. Next up, she said: Latin America.
David Lazarus' column appears Wednesdays, Fridays and Sundays. Send tips or feedback to dlazarus@sfchronicle.com.
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| NedsWeed |
| There needs to be a stop put to this bullshit, like a stout tax placed on every Indian support rep hired and retained.. |
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| tescovee |
| untill we make laws that,dont allow this type of action the only jobs left will be local service, or the armed forces...awww hell look at that, this is probably what the current administration wants, "cant find a job son? join the ARMY its fun for all!" |
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| thoroldjames |
all of a sudden outsourcing is a big deal?
why, where has the outrage been as tens of thousands of manufacturing jobs have gone overseas?
How many of those who are now complaining about tech jobs going to India were the same people who couldn't have cared less,, and in fact were secretly happy when high paying unionized(and non.) jobs were shipped out?
Did you really think they could or would never do this to white collar workers?
Keep electing right wing pro-businnes, anti-worker politicians and this will only get worse. |
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| NC-Stern-Mark |
Quote: Originally posted by thoroldjames
all of a sudden outsourcing is a big deal?
why, where has the outrage been as tens of thousands of manufacturing jobs have gone overseas?
How many of those who are now complaining about tech jobs going to India were the same people who couldn't have cared less,, and in fact were secretly happy when high paying unionized(and non.) jobs were shipped out?
Did you really think they could or would never do this to white collar workers?
Keep electing right wing pro-businnes, anti-worker politicians and this will only get worse. |
BING-FUCKING-O
I've been waiting for this for years! India is graduating accountants and lawyers at a MUCH higher rate than the US and now that outsourcing is affecting the white-collar position, much crying, wailing and gnashing of teeth will be heard. Hopefully... |
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| Max-the-Silent |
| BofA = Boa, the constrictor that kills you. |
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| Jack Shit |
Quote: Originally posted by NC-Stern-Mark
BING-FUCKING-O
I've been waiting for this for years! India is graduating accountants and lawyers at a MUCH higher rate than the US and now that outsourcing is affecting the white-collar position, much crying, wailing and gnashing of teeth will be heard. Hopefully... |
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, we're graduating IronPirate. |
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| jigzaw |
I know it's not easy, and maybe I could get behind some tax incentives to keeping certain types of jobs in the U.S., but the deal is this- we really can't expect to be low-skilled workers and have a prosperous life in the U.S. We really have to become educated and be "brain" workers and innovators.
The U.S. is where the vast majority of innovations have come from over the last 100 years and with more and more countries getting in on the market action and technology making geographical space irrelevant we just have to deal with the fact that people overseas will do these jobs for far less money. The only way to succeed is for the U.S. to basically be the "brain" of the world and we need to make education a priority- and I don't mean by throwing more money at it. I mean by personally having higher standards for ourselves. Just because your teacher didn't assign a book doesn't mean you shouldn't pick it up. We need to wipe out this culture of anti-intellectualism or as Chris Rock observed, the pride in not knowing shit.
This isn't right or left, it's just plain fucking personal survival. |
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| NC-Stern-Mark |
Quote: Originally posted by jigzaw
I know it's not easy, and maybe I could get behind some tax incentives to keeping certain types of jobs in the U.S., but the deal is this- we really can't expect to be low-skilled workers and have a prosperous life in the U.S. We really have to become educated and be "brain" workers and innovators.
The U.S. is where the vast majority of innovations have come from over the last 100 years and with more and more countries getting in on the market action and technology making geographical space irrelevant we just have to deal with the fact that people overseas will do these jobs for far less money. The only way to succeed is for the U.S. to basically be the "brain" of the world and we need to make education a priority- and I don't mean by throwing more money at it. I mean by personally having higher standards for ourselves. Just because your teacher didn't assign a book doesn't mean you shouldn't pick it up. We need to wipe out this culture of anti-intellectualism or as Chris Rock observed, the pride in not knowing shit.
This isn't right or left, it's just plain fucking personal survival. |
Fucking bullshit. This country has been sold out from underneath us. If this country is so great, why the huge fucking trade deficit? Why do other countries restrict their markets and ours are wide open. Why do "free market principals and rules" apply when communist china is taking our jobs. All the people is the US, all 300 million of them can't be brain workers when India is graduating more professional than the US. You are witnessing the decline of this nation and it's brought to you by corrupt politicians who refuse to secure our markets because the foreign lobbyists bought them off. |
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| Lunchboxxx27 |
| outsourcing . . . this country will soon be nothing but foreign employees because of the cheap labor . . how sad . . . |
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| Billyfromsphily |
| Well there are a Billion Chinese who don't have xbox but will have your job someday if the schools don't start demanding something from all the students. |
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| thoroldjames |
Quote: Originally posted by Billyfromsphily
Well there are a Billion Chinese who don't have xbox but will have your job someday if the schools don't start demanding something from all the students. |
Education is no longer a guaranteed way of obtaining a good job.
these jobs being outsourced to India are jobs that required some post secondary education.
The Indians are just as educated but will do it for a fraction of the price.
Will a good education hurt? is it a waste? of course not, but with tax incentives to stay, and tariff and tax penalties for leaving
big business will continue to follow the cheapest pool of labour.
Of course on the brightside, in 30 years we'll be the cheapest pool of labour. :rolleyes: |
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| FatesWebb |
I just want to point out that "outsourcing" as is referred to in this thread is when you go outside of your company (Manpower recruiting) to get employees.
This is actually called "offshoring" when you go out of the country...
just a small correction to the wording. |
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| thoroldjames |
Quote: Originally posted by FatesWebb
I just want to point out that "outsourcing" as is referred to in this thread is when you go outside of your company (Manpower recruiting) to get employees.
This is actually called "offshoring" when you go out of the country...
just a small correction to the wording. |
Go OFFSHORE yourself :D |
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| incoherent |
Oh yeah, the Republicans say let the "free" market do whatever the hell it wants to you and everything will be fine. Look how great that's turning out.
Put the Democrats back in office and fix this! |
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| JTProcess |
Ok people misusing the emergency funds is really bad... but THIS is even worse:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13153520/
Quote: WASHINGTON - The collection, hauling and smashing of debris in Louisiana and Mississippi resulting from Hurricane Katrina is still a daily ritual that has already cost taxpayers almost $2.5 billion. But government investigators and those closest to the cleanup now say hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars may have been wasted. Workers, contractors and government investigators say the large size of the contracts and the multiple tiers of subcontractors have pushed up the cost of the cleanup while slowing down the pace of the operation.
“I have not seen a better example of waste and ineptness in my lifetime,” says Troy Hebert, a part-time Louisiana state legislator and full-time owner of a debris removal company.
Hebert has worked past hurricanes and complains that this time, the Army Corps of Engineers gave debris removal contracts to four major corporations — which did little actual cleanup themselves, instead farming out much of the job to layers of local subcontractors.
The result?
“They were able to make huge, huge sums of profits off of actually other people doing work to clean up our communities, and that's not the way it should be,” says Hebert.
The four primary contractors — Ashbritt Inc., CERES Environmental Services Inc., Environmental Chemical Corp. and Phillips and Jordan Inc. — were each provided with a $500 million contract and a $500 million option by the Army Corps. The companies claim that they did not permit multiple tiers of subcontractors but admit that in some cases their subcontractors may have subcontracted to others. By contract, Environmental Services Inc. permits only two layers of subcontractors, but the company acknowledges that in a few rare instances it found as many as five layers of subcontractors. Ashbritt says it took pains to ensure that it had only one tier of subcontractors on the debris removal work it performed in Mississippi. But in one case NBC News discovered four tiers of subcontractors.
Here's an example of how it worked: The Ashbritt company was paid $23 for every cubic yard of debris it removed. It in turn hired C&B Enterprises, which was paid $9 per cubic yard. That company hired Amlee Transportation, which was paid $8 per cubic yard. Amlee hired Chris Hessler Inc, which received $7 per cubic yard. Hessler, in turn, hired Les Nirdlinger, a debris hauler from New Jersey, who was paid $3 per cubic yard.
Nirdlinger is not happy.
“It's a pyramid,” says Nirdlinger. “And everybody is taking a piece of the pie as you work your way up, and we're at the bottom. We’re doing the work!” he says.
Ashbritt acknowledges it does not own any trucks to haul debris, but insists it typically doesn’t allow layers of subcontractors. It also says that its contract with the Army Corps involved much more than simply hauling debris. As project manager, the company was also responsible for loading the debris trucks, managing the tremendous logistical operations of the debris-removal operation and providing hundreds of workers to manage the cleanup efforts. While the company says there may have been problems with subcontracting practices on other Army Corps debris removal contracts, it says that did not happen on its own contracts and insists that taxpayers got their money's worth.
Congressional investigators disagree.
“Contractors were being paid two, three times what they should have been paid to get the job done,” says Rep. Tom Davis, R-Va., and chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee. “And the job took in some cases two and three times as long as it would have.”
A Federal Emergency Management Agency spokesman says costs for debris removal ranged from $13 to $25 per cubic yard. Some cities that did not engage in debris-removal contracts with the Army Corps negotiated their own contracts directly with private companies and seem to have managed to obtain a lower end price. For example: Gulfport, Miss., hired one company to handle its cleanup and paid $14.95 per cubic yard. Biloxi, Miss., paid $15.89 per cubic yard to three separate contractors.
CERES Environmental Services Inc., one of the four Army Corps primary contractors, says it was paid rates ranging from $14.15-16.36 per cubic yard for its cleanup work. It in turn contracted with Loupe Construction, a small Louisiana company that then hired the company that Troy Hebert worked for, McGee Cos. McGee was paid $10 per cubic yard, but Hebert says he was paid as little as $6 per cubic yard on other debris-removal contracts. In a statement to NBC News, CERES says: “CERES has worked diligently with the Corps to perform the work safely, quickly, and properly for reasonable prices.”
An official with the Army Corps of Engineers says the agency also is concerned that tiers of contractors drove up costs to taxpayers. The official says that, in the future, the Army Corps will probably negotiate its contracts differently and award more direct contracts with smaller budgets as one method of trying to reduce the number of subcontractors on any one contract. |
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| JTProcess |
Then there's this... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12875663/
Quote: Contractors rake it in as they clean it up
By Martin Wolk
Chief economics correspondent
MSNBC
Updated: 5:30 p.m. PT May 31, 2006
For companies in the disaster business, 2005 was a very good year. And if preseason predictions are correct, it could be the first in a series of profitable years for a rapidly growing industry that encompasses engineering firms, debris haulers and logistical specialists who rush in whenever disaster strikes.
In addition to being the largest natural disaster in U.S. history, Hurricane Katrina was a boon for companies that specialize in recovering from such devastation. It opened the spigot to billions of dollars in federal contracts to haul debris, make emergency repairs to damaged homes and buildings, and provide temporary housing and other structures.
The scope of the government aid and the private sector's degree of involvement was eye-opening to those on the receiving end.
“There is big money in disasters,” New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin said recently at a conference of mayors. “Huge money."
Although the contracts went to more than 1,200 businesses, including some small and minority-owned firms, most of the biggest deals were awarded to the giant construction and engineering companies that dominate the disaster-recovery business. These companies, including well-known names like Halliburton and Bechtel, tend to have deep political connections and long histories doing business with the government.
But the growth of the sector is best illustrated by an emerging group of companies even more intensely focused on specialized aspects of post-disaster work. These firms, including Beck Disaster Recovery and AshBritt, typically spring into action after disasters strike by tapping networks of affiliated contractors to quickly dispatch personnel, heavy equipment and other specialized gear to the scene.
Soaring profits
Many of the companies are privately held and release only limited financial figures, but some of the public companies have shown strong financial results this year, reflecting, at least in part, the Katrina effect.
Shaw Group, for example, a Louisiana-based company that responds to an average of 300 emergencies a year, posted revenue of $2.4 billion in the latest six-month period, up more than 50 percent from a year earlier, while profits nearly tripled. At Fluor Corp. revenue was up 27 percent and profits rose 88 percent in the latest quarter, although the company cautioned that government-related business would likely be "materially lower" in the second half of 2006.
Halliburton also has seen revenue and profits surge and is planning a spin-off of its Kellogg, Brown and Root subsidiary, which handles much of the company's government contracting.
But where there is big money pouring rapidly out of government coffers, there is a good chance some of it will be wasted, or worse, especially when 70 percent of the federal contracts are awarded on a no-bid or limited-competition basis, as was the case after Katrina.
The monster storm and the contracting practices that followed it opened the floodgates to "widespread mismanagement, waste and fraud,” Rep. Henry Waxman, D-Calif., said May 4 after reviewing thousands of pages of audits and other documents.
Officials of the Federal Emergency Management Agency and other agencies say they have corrected many problems and tightened oversight.
Among other steps, they say, they have more advance contingency contracts in place to avoid the overpayment caused by the billions of dollars in no-bid contracts awarded after Katrina. Deidre Lee, a federal procurement specialist recently hired as a FEMA deputy director, said the agency also is considering the use of online "reverse auctions," in which contractors vie to provide the lowest bid on a project.
‘Just a bunch of promises’
But as the 2006 hurricane season begins on Thursday, critics are skeptical.
“All we have so far is just a bunch of promises from government agencies that they have learned their lesson from Hurricane Katrina and have improved their system for the next national emergency that comes our way,” said Scott Amey, general counsel for the Project on Government Oversight, a watchdog group.
Some $88 billion has been allocated for Katrina relief and rebuilding to date, according to the Department of Homeland Security, and about $10 billion of that has been handed out to private firms.
In general it is the biggest firms, some of whom who have gotten contracts worth more than $500 million, that have taken much of the heat for systemic failures including poor planning, lack of communication and weak oversight.
There have been a few isolated instances of graft. Of the 261 people arrested on Katrina-related fraud charges as of mid-May, at least one was a contractor who pleaded guilty to bribery. Another was sued and ordered to repay $1.5 million for failing to deliver promised services, according to the Justice Department.
But for the most part, the main complaint has been taxpayer dollars wasted as government agencies, caught unprepared by the biggest natural disaster in U.S. history, were forced to pay top dollar for cleanup and recovery services and failed to sufficiently monitor the service providers.
"Based on timing it was easier for federal agencies to turn to the usual suspects rather than get out and have a competitive bidding process that may have been able to provide better value for services,” said Amey of the Project on Government Oversight.
‘Incompetence and lack of oversight’
David Williams, vice president of policy for another watchdog group, Citizens Against Government Waste, agreed with that assessment.
"I don't think it's as nefarious as people think," he said. "I think it's really incompetence and lack of oversight. There are no mechanisms in place for oversight."
Among the excesses highlighted by Waxman and drawn from reports by the non-partisan Government Accountability Office, an investigative arm of Congress:
Improper billing for debris removal. Some haulers have been paid twice for the same debris by failing to unload their trucks completely at the disposal site. Other haulers have been paid for ineligible debris, such as lower-value vegetation mixed in with construction and demolition debris.
Overbilling on the “blue roof” program. In the immediate aftermath of the storm, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers issued contracts worth $300 million for temporary roof repairs using blue plastic sheeting. Due to lax oversight and inadequate supervision, auditors estimate the government was overbilled more than $12 million, Waxman said. One report estimated the government was paying paying nearly $2,500 to cover each damaged roof – about 10 times the normal rate.
Double-billing for trailer maintenance. Bechtel made a “computation error” that could have cost taxpayers $48 million in excess costs for maintaining FEMA trailers if it hadn't been caught by the Defense Contract Audit Agency.
Overpricing temporary classrooms. The Army Corps of Engineers awarded a no-bid contract to Akima Site Operations for $39.5 million last year but should have been able to negotiate a lower price, according to the GAO. The company's bid on the project rose $8 million overnight but the rationale for the price hike was never questioned by the Corps, the GAO found.
Doing unnecessary work. One contractor was paid $10 million to renovate or furnish 240 rooms in military barracks in Alabama, even though officials on the ground said the facilities were not needed to house evacuees. When the facility was closed, it had only six occupants.
Troubling response from the Corps
The Akima contract was particularly troubling to many observers because the Army Corps did not give any indication it plans to change its procedures. In a written response to the GAO report, Army Assistant Secretary John Paul Woodley Jr. acknowledged that "under trying conditions, mistakes are possible."
"The Corps will take steps to address deficiencies, if any, that are identified so that future operations can be improved," Woodley said.
"We were hoping for a different kind of response," said David Cooper, director for acquisition and sourcing management at the GAO.
Questions also have been raised about work done by AshBritt, the Pompano Beach, Fla., company which won a contract in September worth more than $500 million to remove debris in Mississippi for the Army Corps of Engineers. Within weeks the Corps had issued a "cure notice" threatening to terminate it due to poor quality of work.
"On a contract of this size, and with thousands of contractors working and the magnitude of work that was taking place, it's routine to get letters, maybe weekly, on certain areas that they would like us to perform in a better way, if you will. It's normal," AshBritt President Randal Perkins said May 4 in testimony before the House Government Reform Committee.
Referring to the deficiencies found by the Corps, he said, "We addressed them, we corrected them, and we moved on."
But mention the name of AshBritt to locals in southern Mississippi and you are likely to get a cold stare. Many local contractors feel they have been shut out of the lucrative debris-removal business and claim they could do the job for half the price of AshBritt.
‘Garbage is garbage’
"There is no difference doing what we're doing for $12.90 (per cubic yard) and what they're getting $36 for," said James Necaise, vice president of Necaise Bros. Construction in Gulfport. "I mean, you compare apples to apples, and apples to freight trains, garbage is garbage. You pick it up, you put it in the dump, you get rid of it. There's no difference here."
For the record, Ashbritt's Perkins said his company gets an average $23 a cubic yard for its Mississippi work, while an Army Corps official puts the figure at $26. Some contractors in Louisiana have made upwards of $35 a cubic yard, according to published reports. By contrast private contractors working in Mississippi dispose of debris "from cradle to grave" for about $17 a cubic yard, according to local officials.
AshBritt's Perkins said his company deserves a premium because it complies with a stricter set of regulations established well in advance of the storm.
Critics of AshBritt are fond of pointing to the privately held — and highly secretive — company's powerful political connections, including contracts with lobbyists like Barbour Griffith & Rogers, the firm founded by Mississippi's Republican Gov. Haley Barbour. Perkins and his wife also have personally donated $50,000 to the Republican National Committee, according to a Miami Herald profile.
But such political connections are hardly limited to Republicans. In Louisiana, Democratic Party Chairman Jim Bernhard resigned three weeks after Katrina's staggering blow to focus on his other job — as chairman of engineering giant Shaw Group.
Bernhard said he needed to focus on his engineering and construction company, but some critics contended he had to resign mainly to avoid the appearance of favoritism as the company received post-hurricane rebuilding contracts worth well over $300 million, according to an accounting by Taxpayers for Common Sense.
For Bernhard, it looks like it was a smart decision. Shaw Group revenues have soared, and the company's stock is up 63 percent since Katrina roared ashore in late August. The company's "backlog" of business has risen by about $1 billion, partly because of federal contracts associated with disaster recovery, and Bernhard's personal stake has risen in value by about $30 million, according to the latest available ownership figures.
© 2006 MSNBC Interactive
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Everyone is OUTRAGED when disaster victims misuse the relief money their given... but when contractors do it... no one seems to even notice. |
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| Crazytree |
Quote: Originally posted by NC-Stern-Mark
BING-FUCKING-O
I've been waiting for this for years! India is graduating accountants and lawyers at a MUCH higher rate than the US and now that outsourcing is affecting the white-collar position, much crying, wailing and gnashing of teeth will be heard. Hopefully... |
Don't be too concerned about Chinese or Indian professionals taking over the world. Virtually all of them lack developed problem-solving or independent-thinking skills. Their creativity when faced with real-world problems is far below that of their American counterparts. |
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| thoroldjames |
Quote: Originally posted by Crazytree
Don't be too concerned about Chinese or Indian professionals taking over the world. Virtually all of them lack developed problem-solving or independent-thinking skills. Their creativity when faced with real-world problems is far below that of their American counterparts. |
Are you for real?
Proof please.
I'm willing to bet that 30 odd years ago some other misguided individual said the same thing about Japan.
Chinese society has existed for what 5000+ years, but they lack
creativity and problem solving skills?
Keep telling yourselves that. |
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| SATANS BEST BUD |
If these Smelly fucks are so smart, then why can't they drive or bathe.
Some Indian doctor bitch Crashed her car off a boat ramp in Alameda CA. She was missing for months, costing tax payers money.
Now her Dune Coon family is sueing the city.That boat ramp has been there for years, no problums.
I say holocaust 2 coming to RAGHEADS near you!!! |
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| Crazytree |
Quote: Originally posted by thoroldjames
Are you for real?
Proof please.
I'm willing to bet that 30 odd years ago some other misguided individual said the same thing about Japan.
Chinese society has existed for what 5000+ years, but they lack
creativity and problem solving skills?
Keep telling yourselves that. |
the Japanese have been tweaking American and European technology for the past 60 years. they're good at improving on already-existing technology... but extremely poor at any type of innovation. I challenge you to name one Japanese invention that was not overwhelmingly based on American or European technology.
Quote: Originally posted by thoroldjames
Chinese society has existed for what 5000+ years, but they lack
creativity and problem solving skills?
Keep telling yourselves that. |
you are obviously COMPLETELY CLUELESS. the only major invention out of China in the past 50 years was a "homegrown Chinese microprocessor"... turns out some guy pocketed the grant money and had some Chinese peasants scrubbing names off of Motorola chips and putting Chinese stickers on there. and this was the Dean of the "Chinese Harvard".
Chinese business is too greedy and lacks the patience for R&D investment... and when they do inveest in R&D... some greedy criminal is all too happy to give them a Chinese suprise by giving them plagarized research and counterfeit products.
it's no surprise that 16 of the 20 most polluted cities in the world are in China. it's because as a society they're so myopic that they'll destroy their environment in exchange for short-term economic gain.
their government-sanctioned exploitation of Intellectual Property and widespread corruption at all levels indicates that the Chinese idea of problem-solving starts with the wrong premise: HOW DO I MAKE AS MUCH MONEY AS POSSIBLE AS FAST AS POSSIBLE?
zero long-term economic planning. |
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| NC-Stern-Mark |
Quote: Originally posted by Crazytree
the Japanese have been tweaking American and European technology for the past 60 years. they're good at improving on already-existing technology... but extremely poor at any type of innovation. I challenge you to name one Japanese invention that was not overwhelmingly based on American or European technology.
you are obviously COMPLETELY CLUELESS. the only major invention out of China in the past 50 years was a "homegrown Chinese microprocessor"... turns out some guy pocketed the grant money and had some Chinese peasants scrubbing names off of Motorola chips and putting Chinese stickers on there. and this was the Dean of the "Chinese Harvard".
Chinese business is too greedy and lacks the patience for R&D investment... and when they do inveest in R&D... some greedy criminal is all too happy to give them a Chinese suprise by giving them plagarized research and counterfeit products.
it's no surprise that 16 of the 20 most polluted cities in the world are in China. it's because as a society they're so myopic that they'll destroy their environment in exchange for short-term economic gain.
their government-sanctioned exploitation of Intellectual Property and widespread corruption at all levels indicates that the Chinese idea of problem-solving starts with the wrong premise: HOW DO I MAKE AS MUCH MONEY AS POSSIBLE AS FAST AS POSSIBLE?
zero long-term economic planning. |
I agree with most of what you said but a lot of boilerplate and mundane legal and accounting jobs will go overseas and if china does destroy it's environment and there's evidence it's doing so, this will still take awhile and our jobs are still getting sucked out the country. |
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| Crazytree |
fortunately the professions have "boards" that will continue to raise the bar in terms of education requirements and examination in order to prevent this type of thing.
for example... the California Bar Exam's passage rate for foreign-educated attorneys is somewhere in the range of 20%. |
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| NC-Stern-Mark |
Quote: Originally posted by Crazytree
fortunately the professions have "boards" that will continue to raise the bar in terms of education requirements and examination in order to prevent this type of thing.
for example... the California Bar Exam's passage rate for foreign-educated attorneys is somewhere in the range of 20%. |
What will that do if companies outsource legal and accounting jobs? |
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| Robinsmuff |
Are economy is no longer based on making things, we have now officially become a financial services economy. As of 2004 the financial sector share of total net income of the S&P 500 is well over 20% while the manufacturing share is below 15%. The origins of US corporate profits is even more dramatic with financials making up almost 40% while mfg makes up less than 10%.
This should scare every American. Our greatest profits are not based on inovations & new technology, but instead on moving money. Money that is often moved to secure another high interest loan that while contributing to a purchase also adds to our debt. The value of our economy is directly tied to the value of the dollar. What if OPEC decided to base the price of oil on a different currency? Our entire economy would be crushed. The fact that much of the financial sectors profits are generated by providing consumers with artificial purchasing power means much of the money being moved is not even real money.
"Financialization historically is a sign of debilitation, marked by excessive debt, great disparity between rich & poor, & unfolding decline. " Eamonn Fingleton - economic journalist . In other words we are living on the edge of what could be the end of our economic dominance. Currently so much of our debt is owed to other countries which means we don't even make the rules of return anymore. Anyone paying attention should be afraid, with the exception of the very rich who have been taken care of. |
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| Crazytree |
Quote: Originally posted by NC-Stern-Mark
What will that do if companies outsource legal and accounting jobs? |
the practice of law, medicine and accountancy are regulated by the states. while yes, much menial work can be outsourced, the real "problem-solving" by law must be done by licensed professionals. for example, a legal opinion by an Indian lawyer who is not admitted to practice in California... that opinion letter is worthless with respect to subsequent litigation... plus it constitutes the illegal practice of law. same scenario for doctors, accountants, etc. expect the licensing bodies to drop the hammer on foreign applicants if this ever becomes a problem... the most likely requirement be that you be US-educated at an accredited school to get a license. |
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| BeerPal |
Quote: Originally posted by SATANS BEST BUD
That boat ramp has been there for years, no problums. |
That boat ramp as been the site of at least 7 deaths over the years and was poorly designed to begin with. I'm surprised the city is only now being sued. |
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| ihatecabbie |
Quote: Originally posted by Crazytree
Don't be too concerned about Chinese or Indian professionals taking over the world. Virtually all of them lack developed problem-solving or independent-thinking skills. Their creativity when faced with real-world problems is far below that of their American counterparts. |
Oh sweet irony, my little racist. Your generalizations and unsubstantiated "arguments" again belie any sort of true lawyer-like skills. Lower 50% of the class for sure. Everyone sees through your bullshit, even the laity. Unfortunately, you have none of these "problem-solving or independent-thinking" skills and your job will soon be headed eastward. It's OK though, because your inflated ego will no doubt be great when diverted to fill balloons and other such products. |
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| Crazytree |
Quote: Originally posted by ihatecabbie
Oh sweet irony, my little racist. Your generalizations and unsubstantiated "arguments" again belie any sort of true lawyer-like skills. Lower 50% of the class for sure. Everyone sees through your bullshit, even the laity. Unfortunately, you have none of these "problem-solving or independent-thinking" skills and your job will soon be headed eastward. It's OK though, because your inflated ego will no doubt be great when diverted to fill balloons and other such products. |
LINK: The numbers don't lie.
I was wrong when I said the pass rate for foreign applicants was 20%. It was actually 8.3%. There is no better measure of "problem-solving and independent-thinking" skills in the world than the California Bar Exam.
There are the fucking numbers.
Now shut the fuck up.
Seriously.
And just to prove what a stupid fuck you are... the idea that my statements were "racist" makes clear to me that you're a fucking moron. There are TONS of Chinese and Indians in this country who are excellent lawyers... and here's the kicker.... THEY'RE ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY U.S. EDUCATED. That's the distinction that your birdbrain is unable to comprehend. Lack of those very important skills is not race-based... it is largely a product of a country's educational system.
Here, have some birdbseed:
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