|
Note: This is a Text only archive. Go directly to the real forum.
Torture Doesn't Work. 45 Retired Military Leaders Say So.
- Click HERE to go to the original thread with graphics
banner
| Torture Doesn't Work. 45 Retired Military Leaders Say So.
- Click HERE to go to the original thread with graphics
|
| Ass Boil |
Can't wait for the 101st Fighting Keyboardists to smear this guy and tell him he is "protecting terrorists".
Quote:
Why Torture Doesn't Work
By Brig. Gen. David R. Irvine, AlterNet
Posted on November 22, 2005, Printed on September 21, 2006
http://www.alternet.org/story/28585/
Remarkably, of the nation's major newspapers, only the Wall Street Journal has editorialized in support of torture as a useful tool of American intelligence policy. Regrettably, that position does a huge disservice to the nation and its soldiers. There are really only three issues in this debate, and the Journal carefully turned a blind eye to all three: (1) is torture reliable, (2) is it consistent with America's values and Constitution, and (3) does it best serve our national interests?
No one has yet offered any validated evidence that torture produces reliable intelligence. While torture apologists frequently make the claim that torture saves lives, that assertion is directly contradicted by many Army, FBI, and CIA professionals who have actually interrogated al Qaeda captives. Exhibit A is the torture-extracted confession of Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, an al Qaeda captive who told the CIA in 2001, having been "rendered" to the tender mercies of Egypt, that Saddam Hussein had trained al Qaeda to use WMD. It appears that this confession was the only information upon which, in late 2002, the president, the vice president, and the secretary of state repeatedly claimed that "credible evidence" supported that claim, even though a now-declassified Defense Intelligence Agency report from February 2002 questioned the reliability of the confession because it was likely obtained under torture. In January 2004, al-Libi recanted his "confession," and a month later, the CIA recalled all intelligence reports based on his statements.
Exhibit B is the case of Manadel al-Jamadi, an Iraqi deemed a "high-value" target by the CIA. After being beaten to an extent that he had several broken ribs, he was subjected to a form of crucifixion known as "Palestinian hanging." Forty-five minutes later, he was dead, never having revealed whatever vital, ticking-bomb information his American interrogator was seeking.
If there is reliable evidence that torture has, in fact, interrupted ticking time bombs and saved lives, the gravity of the crisis created by the administration's free-wheeling torture policy demands straight answers which can be weighed and evaluated by a bipartisan, blue-ribbon commission whose membership might include interrogators, jurists, theologians, national security specialists, military leaders, and political leaders. The damage to our national interests and the dismal record of war candor by this administration has made "trust us" an insufficient justification for such a profound change in American law and moral values.
The Journal claims that Abu Ghraib was an anomaly -- that it has become a "torture narrative" that erroneously blames the CIA for the abuses depicted in the infamous photographs. The Schlesinger report was cited for the conclusion that the perpetrators were merely a group of sadistic, poorly trained Reservists. This argument, however begs the question; the rationale for the McCain amendment rests not upon Abu Ghraib, but upon the cascading stream of documented reports from other places in Afghanistan and Iraq in which brutal torture has been either authorized or winked at by several different military and civilian chains of command.
The Journal further distorts the facts by arguing that techniques such as waterboarding (which induces the sensation of drowning), leaving prisoners outdoors in freezing weather, and stress positions which can cause suffocation and collapse, are not really "torture," but are just "psychological techniques designed to break a detainee." There is, certainly, a psychological component to torture, but the real issue is whether what's done causes severe physical or mental pain or suffering. Of the crucifixion form of "psychological" pressure which the CIA worked upon Jamadi, one of the soldiers who cut him down said he had never seen anyone's arms positioned like that; "[I] was surprised they didn't just pop out of their sockets."
The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops has endorsed the McCain amendments, and declared, "In the face of this perilous climate, our nation must not embrace a morality based on an attitude that 'desperate times call for desperate measures.' There can be no compromise on the moral imperative to protect the basic human rights of any individual incarcerated for any reason." Our embrace of torture is completely inconsistent with our commitment to equal justice and the rule of law.
The Journal assumes that only the worst of the worst will be subjected to torture when it comes to ticking time bombs. Not only is that assumption unfounded, based upon the widespread abuses in Iraq, it was tried and abandoned by the Israelis. Because it is impossible to confirm with advance certainty what any suspect actually knows, ticking bomb torture can be justified in virtually every interrogation. When Israel experimented with "torture lite," supposedly reserved for ticking-bomb circumstances, it was not long before 85 percent of all Palestinian detainees were being given the harshest treatment allowed. The capability to finely calibrate torture has eluded every democratic government which has tried it.
The inescapable fact is that America's standing in the world, and especially in the Middle East, has never been lower. The price we have paid for our misdirected torture policies has been incalculable. The Arab street may not always grasp the finer points of separation of powers or proportional representation; but everyone, everywhere, comprehends hypocrisy, and judges us for ours. If the torture advocates truly believe that the value of violently coerced information has been worth the plummeting drop in America's world stature, or that such information is worth the clear and present endangerment of captured Americans, it's time to justify the claimed value of torture to the nation in whose name it's being done. Not assumptions, not generalizations, not, "I can't explain because it's classified."
The president and vice president wish to chart a course of heretofore unacceptable savagery toward anyone even suspected of terrorism. If we are to become a nation where a president may torture anyone he wishes, it deserves a broad, sober, fact-based national debate.
Brigadier General David R. Irvine is a retired Army Reserve strategic intelligence officer who taught prisoner interrogation and military law for 18 years with the Sixth Army Intelligence School. He currently practices law in Salt Lake City, Utah.
Learn more and help to make sure torture never again happens in America's name by visiting Human Rights First's campaign to End Torture.
© 2006 Independent Media Institute. All rights reserved.
View this story online at: http://www.alternet.org/story/28585/
|
Or these guys
Quote:
September 12, 2006
The Honorable John Warner, Chairman
The Honorable Carl Levin, Ranking Member
Senate Armed Services Committee
United States Senate
Washington, DC 20510
Dear Chairman Warner and Senator Levin:
As retired military leaders of the U.S. Armed Forces and former officials of the Department of
Defense, we write to express our profound concern about a key provision of S. 3861, the Military
Commissions Act of 2006, introduced last week at the behest of the President. We believe that the
language that would redefine Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions as equivalent to the
standards contained in the Detainee Treatment Act violates the core principles of the Geneva
Conventions and poses a grave threat to American service-members, now and in future wars.
We supported your efforts last year to clarify that all detainees in U.S. custody must be treated
humanely. That was particularly important, because the Administration determined that it was not
bound by the basic humane treatment standards contained in Geneva Common Article 3. Now that
the Supreme Court has made clear that treatment of al Qaeda prisoners is governed by the Geneva
Convention standards, the Administration is seeking to redefine Common Article 3, so as to
downgrade those standards. We urge you to reject this effort.
Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions provides the minimum standards for humane
treatment and fair justice that apply to anyone captured in armed conflict. These standards were
specifically designed to ensure that those who fall outside the other, more extensive, protections of
the Conventions are treated in accordance with the values of civilized nations. The framers of the
Conventions, including the American representatives, in particular wanted to ensure that Common
Article 3 would apply in situations where a state party to the treaty, like the United States, fights an
adversary that is not a party, including irregular forces like al Qaeda. The United States military has
abided by the basic requirements of Common Article 3 in every conflict since the Conventions were
adopted. In each case, we applied the Geneva Conventions -- including, at a minimum, Common
Article 3 -- even to enemies that systematically violated the Conventions themselves.
We have abided by this standard in our own conduct for a simple reason: the same standard serves
to protect American servicemen and women when they engage in conflicts covered by Common
Article 3. Preserving the integrity of this standard has become increasingly important in recent
years when our adversaries often are not nation-states. Congress acted in 1997 to further this goal
by criminalizing violations of Common Article 3 in the War Crimes Act, enabling us to hold
accountable those who abuse our captured personnel, no matter the nature of the armed conflict.
If any agency of the U.S. government is excused from compliance with these standards, or if we
seek to redefine what Common Article 3 requires, we should not imagine that our enemies will take
notice of the technical distinctions when they hold U.S. prisoners captive. If degradation,
humiliation, physical and mental brutalization of prisoners is decriminalized or considered
permissible under a restrictive interpretation of Common Article 3, we will forfeit all credible
objections should such barbaric practices be inflicted upon American prisoners.
This is not just a theoretical concern. We have people deployed right now in theaters where
Common Article 3 is the only source of legal protection should they be captured. If we allow that
standard to be eroded, we put their safety at greater risk.
Last week, the Department of Defense issued a Directive reaffirming that the military will uphold
the requirements of Common Article 3 with respect to all prisoners in its custody. We welcome this
new policy. Our servicemen and women have operated for too long with unclear and unlawful
guidance on detainee treatment, and some have been left to take the blame when things went wrong.
The guidance is now clear.
But that clarity will be short-lived if the approach taken by Administration’s bill prevails. In
contrast to the Pentagon’s new rules on detainee treatment, the bill would limit our definition of
Common Article 3's terms by introducing a flexible, sliding scale that might allow certain coercive
interrogation techniques under some circumstances, while forbidding them under others. This
would replace an absolute standard – Common Article 3 -- with a relative one. To do so will only
create further confusion.
Moreover, were we to take this step, we would be viewed by the rest of the world as having
formally renounced the clear strictures of the Geneva Conventions. Our enemies would be
encouraged to interpret the Conventions in their own way as well, placing our troops in jeopardy in
future conflicts. And American moral authority in the war would be further damaged.
All of this is unnecessary. As the senior serving Judge Advocates General recently testified, our
armed forces have trained to Common Article 3 and can live within its requirements while waging
the war on terror effectively.
As the United States has greater exposure militarily than any other nation, we have long emphasized
the reciprocal nature of the Geneva Conventions. That is why we believe – and the United States
has always asserted -- that a broad interpretation of Common Article 3 is vital to the safety of U.S.
personnel. But the Administration’s bill would put us on the opposite side of that argument. We
urge you to consider the impact that redefining Common Article 3 would have on Americans who
put their lives at risk in defense of our Nation. We believe their interests, and their safety and
protection should they become prisoners, should be your highest priority as you address this issue.
With respect,
General John Shalikashvili, USA (Ret.)
General Joseph Hoar, USMC (Ret.)
Admiral Gregory G. Johnson, USN (Ret.)
Admiral Jay L. Johnson, USN (Ret.)
General Paul J. Kern, USA (Ret.)
General Merrill A. McPeak, USAF (Ret.)
Admiral Stansfield Turner, USN (Ret.)
General William G. T. Tuttle Jr., USA (Ret.)
Lieutenant General Daniel W. Christman, USA (Ret.)
Lieutenant General Paul E. Funk, USA (Ret.)
Lieutenant General Robert G. Gard Jr., USA (Ret.)
Lieutenant General Jay M. Garner, USA (Ret.)
Vice Admiral Lee F. Gunn, USN (Ret.)
Lieutenant General Arlen D. Jameson, USAF (Ret.)
Lieutenant General Claudia J. Kennedy, USA (Ret.)
Lieutenant General Donald L. Kerrick, USA (Ret.)
Vice Admiral Albert H. Konetzni Jr., USN (Ret.)
Lieutenant General Charles Otstott, USA (Ret.)
Vice Admiral Jack Shanahan, USN (Ret.)
Lieutenant General Harry E. Soyster, USA (Ret.)
Lieutenant General Paul K. Van Riper, USMC (Ret.)
Major General John Batiste, USA (Ret.)
Major General Eugene Fox, USA (Ret.)
Major General John L. Fugh, USA (Ret.)
Rear Admiral Don Guter, USN (Ret.)
Major General Fred E. Haynes, USMC (Ret.)
Rear Admiral John D. Hutson, USN (Ret.)
Major General Melvyn Montano, ANG (Ret.)
Major General Gerald T. Sajer, USA (Ret.)
Major General Michael J. Scotti Jr., USA (Ret.)
Brigadier General David M. Brahms, USMC (Ret.)
Brigadier General James P. Cullen, USA (Ret.)
Brigadier General Evelyn P. Foote, USA (Ret.)
Brigadier General David R. Irvine, USA (Ret.)
Brigadier General John H. Johns, USA (Ret.)
Brigadier General Richard O’Meara, USA (Ret.)
Brigadier General Murray G. Sagsveen, USA (Ret.)
Brigadier General John K. Schmitt, USA (Ret.)
Brigadier General Anthony Verrengia, USAF (Ret.)
Brigadier General Stephen N. Xenakis, USA (Ret.)
Ambassador Pete Peterson, USAF (Ret.)
Colonel Lawrence B. Wilkerson, USA (Ret.)
Honorable Richard Danzig
Honorable William H. Taft IV
Frank Kendall III, Esq.
BIOGRAPHICAL INFORMATION
General John Shalikashvili, USA (Ret.)
General Shalikashvili was Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (Department of Defense) from 1993 till
1997. Prior to serving as Chairman, he served as NATO’s Supreme Allied Commander for Europe, and also
as the commander-in-chief of the United States European Command. He was until recently a visiting
professor at The Stanford Institute for International Studies.
General Joseph Hoar, USMC (Ret.)
General Hoar served as Commander-in-Chief, U.S. Central Command. After the first Gulf War, General
Hoar led the effort to enforce the naval embargo in the Red Sea and the Persian Gulf, and to enforce the no-
fly zone in the south of Iraq. He oversaw the humanitarian and peacekeeping operations in Kenya and
Somalia and also supported operations in Rwanda, and the evacuation of U.S. civilians from Yemen during
the 1994 civil war. He was the Deputy for Operations for the Marine Corps during the Gulf War and served
as General Norman Schwarzkopf's Chief of Staff at Central Command. General Hoar currently runs a
consulting business in California.
Admiral Gregory G. Johnson, USN (Ret.)
Admiral Gregory "Grog" Johnson was selected for flag rank in February 1995. His initial flag assignment
was as the Director of Operations, Plans, and Policy (N3/N5) on the Commander in Chief, U.S. Atlantic
Fleet staff. In February 1996, he reported as Commander, Carrier Group Eight/USS Theodore Roosevelt
Battle Group where he served until August 1997. In September 1997 he reported as the Senior Military
Assistant to the Deputy Secretary of Defense and was subsequently assigned as the Senior Military Assistant
to the Secretary of Defense in May 1999. Adm. Johnson's assumed command of the U.S. Sixth Fleet and
Naval Striking and Support Forces Southern Europe in October 2000. Adm. Johnson next commanded U.S.
Naval Forces, Europe and Joint Force Command, Naples from October 2001 through October 2004. He
retired from active duty 01 December 2004. Admiral Johnson's decorations and awards include the Defense
Distinguished Service Medal (with three Bronze Oak Leafs), Navy Distinguished Service Medal, Defense
Superior Service Medal, Legion of Merit (with two Gold Stars), Defense Meritorious Service Medal,
Meritorious Service Medal (with two Gold Stars), NATO Meritorious Service Medal, Air Medal, Navy
Commendation Medal, Navy Achievement Medal, and various service and campaign awards.
Admiral Jay L. Johnson, USN (Ret.)
Admiral Johnson is a 1968 graduate of the United States Naval Academy. His first Flag Officer assignment
was as Assistant Chief of Naval Personnel for Distribution in the Bureau of Naval Personnel. In October
1992, he reported as Commander, Carrier Group EIGHT/Commander, USS Theodore Roosevelt Battle
Group. In July 1994, he was assigned as Commander, SECOND Fleet/Commander, Striking Fleet
Atlantic/Commander, Joint Task Force 120. In March 1996, he reported for duty as the 28th Vice Chief of
Naval Operations in Washington, D.C. In August 1996, Adm. Johnson became the 26th Chief of Naval
Operations, and served until July 21, 2000.
General Paul J. Kern, USA (Ret.)
In November 2004, General Paul Kern concluded his more than 40-year career in the United States Army
when he retired as Commanding General, Army Materiel Command (AMC). In June 2004, Secretary
Rumsfeld tapped him to lead the military's internal investigation into the abuses at the Abu Ghraib prison in
Iraq. Prior to his command at AMC, he served as the military deputy to the Assistant Secretary of the Army
for Acquisition, Logistics and Technology and was the senior military advisor to the Army Acquisition
Executive and the Army Chief of Staff on all research, development, and acquisition programs and related
issues. As the Senior Military Assistant to Secretary of Defense William Perry, General Kern was
instrumental in ensuring that the Secretary's guidance was implemented throughout the Department. During
that tenure he traveled with Secretary Perry to more than 70 countries, participated in U.S. operations in
Haiti, Rwanda, Zaire and the Balkans, and helped to promote military relations in Central and Eastern
Europe, South America, China, and the Middle East. General Kern had three combat tours during his
illustrious career with two tours in Vietnam as a platoon leader and troop commander, and he commanded
the Second Brigade of the 24th Infantry in Desert Shield/Desert Storm. During his career, General Kern
received the Defense and Army Distinguished Service Medals, Silver Star, Defense Superior Service Medal,
Legion of Merit, two Bronze Star Medals for valor, three Bronze Star Medals for service in combat, and
three Purple Hearts.
General Merrill A. McPeak, USAF (Ret.)
General McPeak served as the Chief of Staff of the U.S. Air Force. Previously, General McPeak served as
Commander in Chief of the U.S. Pacific Air Forces. He is a command pilot, having flown more than 6,000
hours, principally in fighter aircraft.
Admiral Stansfield Turner, USN (Ret.)
During his service in the United States Navy, Admiral Turner commanded a mine sweeper, a destroyer, a
guided-missile cruiser, a carrier task group and a fleet. He also was President of the Naval War College.
Admiral Stansfield Turner's last naval assignment was as Commander in Chief of NATO's Southern Flank.
In 1977 President Jimmy Carter appointed Turner as Director of the Central Intelligence Agency. He served
in the post until January 1981. In recent years he has worked as a lecturer, writer and TV
commentator. Since 1991 he has been teaching at the University of Maryland School of Public
Policy. Admiral Turner serves on the Board of Direction of the American Association of Rhodes Scholars, as
well as on the boards of other organizations.
General William G. T. Tuttle Jr., USA (Ret.)
General Tuttle served for nearly 34 years in the U.S. Army and retired following command of the U.S. Army
Materiel Command. He served tours in Vietnam, Korea, and Europe and his military experience included
leadership of the Army Logistics Center, Operational Test and Evaluation Agency, and four logistics
commands as well as operations analysis and force management responsibilities on Army and NATO staffs.
He was awarded the Distinguished Service Medals of the Army, Navy, Air Force, and the Department of
Defense.
Lieutenant General Daniel W. Christman, USA (Ret.)
General Daniel W. Christman served for five years as the Superintendent of the United States Military
Academy at West Point. He also served for two years as assistant to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of
Staff, during which time he traveled with and advised Secretary of State Warren Christopher. He was
centrally involved during this period with negotiations between Israel and Syria as a member of the
Secretary's Middle East Peace Team. General Christman also represented the United States as a member of
NATO’s Military Committee in Brussels, Belgium. He is a decorated combat veteran of Southeast Asia,
where he commanded a company in the 101st Airborne Division in 1969. On four occasions, General
Christman has been awarded the Army and Defense Distinguished Service Medal, which is the Defense
Department’s highest peacetime award. He is currently the Senior Vice President for International Affairs at
the United States Chamber of Commerce, where is responsible for representing the Chamber before foreign
business leaders and government officials and for providing strategic leadership on international issues
affecting the business community.
Lieutenant General Paul E. Funk, USA (Ret.)
Lieutenant General Paul E. Funk retired after more than thirty-two years of active service. Most recently, has
served as Commander of the 3rd Armored Division in Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and Kuwait in the Persian Gulf
War, Commanding General of the U.S. Army Armor Center, Fort Knox, KY, and Commanding General,
U.S. Army III Corps, Ft. Hood, TX. He is currently working as the Associate Director of Education &
Applications of Technology at The Institute for Advanced Technology at the University of Texas at Austin.
Lieutenant General Robert G. Gard Jr., USA (Ret.)
General Gard is a retired Lieutenant General who served in the United States Army; his military assignments
included combat service in Korea and Vietnam. He is currently a consultant on international security and
president emeritus of the Monterey Institute for International Studies.
Lieutenant General Jay M. Garner, USA (Ret.)
General Garner served in the Army for 35 years. His last active job was Assistant Vice Chief of Staff, United
States Army. He was also the Director of Reconstruction and Humanitarian Assistance for Iraq prior to
Ambassador Bremer's appointment.
Vice Admiral Lee F. Gunn, USN (Ret.)
Vice Admiral Gunn served as the Inspector General of the Department of the Navy from 1997 until
retirement in August 2000. Admiral Gunn's sea duty included: command of the frigate USS Barbey;
command of Destroyer Squadron 31, the Navy's tactical and technical development anti-submarine
warfare squadron; and command of Amphibious Group Three, supporting the First Marine Expeditionary
Force in Southwest Asia and East Africa. Gunn is from Bakersfield, California and is a graduate of
UCLA, having received his commission from the Naval ROTC program at UCLA in June 1965.
Lieutenant General Arlen D. Jameson, USAF (Ret.)
Lieutenant General Arlen D. Jameson was deputy commander in chief and chief of staff, U.S. Strategic
Command, Offutt Air Force Base, Neb. The command has responsibility for all U.S. Air Force and U.S.
Navy strategic nuclear forces supporting the national security objective of strategic deterrence. General
Jameson was commissioned as a distinguished graduate through the University of Puget Sound's Air Force
Reserve Officer Training Corps program in 1962. He has held a number of key command positions,
including wing commander, division commander, center commander and numbered Air Force commander.
He also served in numerous headquarters assignments. He was chief of staff and director of command and
control at Headquarters Strategic Air Command. He has served with the Headquarters U.S. Air Force staff
and as military assistant to the under secretary of the Air Force.
Lieutenant General Claudia J. Kennedy, USA (Ret.)
General Kennedy is the first and only woman to achieve the rank of three-star general in the United States
Army. Kennedy served as Deputy Chief of Staff for Army Intelligence, Commander of the U.S. Army
Recruiting Command, and as Commander of the 703d military intelligence brigade in Kunia, Hawaii.
Lieutenant General Donald L. Kerrick, USA (Ret.)
Lieutenant General Kerrick retired from the U.S. Army in 2001 after a 30-year military career. His
assignments included Deputy National Security Advisor to the President of the United States; Assistant to the
Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff; Chief of Staff/Staff Director, the National Security Council, The White
House; Director of Operations, Defense Intelligence Agency; the Army Staff, Commander 701st Military
Intelligence Brigade and Field Station Augsburg, Germany; and Commander 3rd Military Intelligence
Battalion (Aerial Exploitation), Korea. General Kerrick also served, by Presidential appointment, as a
principal negotiator on the international Bosnia Peace Delegation that ended the Bosnian War. He later was
appointed by President Clinton to serve on the Steering Committee for the Protection of United States
Critical Infrastructure that developed the blueprint for the structure and procedures designed to protect
national critical infrastructure. Kerrick currently serves as the vice president of strategic business
development for a major defense company.
Vice Admiral Albert H. Konetzni Jr., USN (Ret.)
Vice Admiral Konetzni served as the Deputy and Chief of Staff, of the U.S. Atlantic Fleet and Deputy
Commander, U.S. Fleet Forces Command, where he was responsible for 160 ships, nearly 1,200 aircraft and
50 bases manned by more than 133,000 personnel. He has also served as Commander, Submarine Force,
U.S. Pacific Fleet; Commander, Submarine Group Seven (Yokosuka, Japan); and Assistant Chief of Naval
Personnel for Personnel Policy and Career Progression. Admiral Konetzni has received two Distinguished
Service Medals, six awards of the Legion of Merit, and three awards of the Meritorious Service Medal for his
Naval Service. His Homeland Security efforts have earned him the U.S. Coast Guard Distinguished Service
Medal.
Lieutenant General Charles Otstott, USA (Ret.)
General Otstott served 32 years in the Army. As an Infantryman, he commanded at every echelon including
command of the 25th Infantry Division (Light) from 1988-1990. His service included two combat tours in
Vietnam. He completed his service in uniform as Deputy Chairman, NATO Military Committee, 1990-1992.
Vice Admiral Jack Shanahan, USN (Ret.)
Admiral Shanahan served in the Navy for 35 years before his retirement in 1977. A former commander of the
North Atlantic fleet, Admiral Shanahan served in combat in WWII, Korea and Vietnam.
Lieutenant General Harry E. Soyster, USA (Ret.)
Lieutenant General Soyster is currently the Executive Director, Department of Defense World War II 60th
Anniversary Commemoration Committee, and Special Assistant to the Secretary of the Army. Prior to that,
he was the Director of Washington Operations, and Vice President of International Operations, Military
Professional Resources Incorporated. He also served as Director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, Deputy
Assistant Chief of Staff for Intelligence, Department of the Army, and Commanding General, U.S. Army
Intelligence and Security Command. General Soyster is the former Director of Operations, Joint Chiefs of
Staff.
Lieutenant General Paul K. Van Riper, USMC (Ret.)
At the time of his retirement, Lieutenant General Paul K. Van Riper was serving as the Commanding
General, Marine Corps Combat Development Command, Quantico, VA. He did two tours in Vietnam and
was assigned as a Military Observer with the United Nations Truce Supervision Organization in Palestine.
Upon completion of his overseas tour, General Van Riper served as a Commanding Officer, Regimental
Executive Officer and was ultimately assigned to the Exercise, Readiness and Training Branch of the G-3
Section, I Marine Amphibious Force. In 1985, General Van Riper was transferred to the 3d Marine Division
on Okinawa, where he commanded the 4th Marines. He served as the Assistant Chief of Staff, G-3, 3d
Marine Division from December 1986 until reassigned as the Division Chief of Staff in June 1987. In 1988,
he returned to Quantico as Director of the Command and Staff College and became the first President of the
Marine Corps University. He was assigned as the Deputy Commander for Training and Education and
Director, Marine Air-Ground Training and Education Center, MCCDC until he was sent to Iraq for
Operations Desert Shield and Desert Storm as a member of the MARCENT/I Marine Expeditionary Force
staff. Upon his return, General Van Riper served as Commanding General, Assistant Chief of Staff,
Command, Control, Communications, and Computer and as Director of Intelligence from April 1993 until
July 1995. He was advanced to Lieutenant General and assumed his last post on July 13, 1995. General Van
Riper's personal decorations include: the Silver Star Medal with gold star; Legion of Merit; Bronze Star
Medal with Combat "V"; Purple Heart; Meritorious Service Medal; Joint Service Commendation Medal;
Army Commendation Medal; Navy Achievement Medal; and the Combat Action Ribbon with gold star.
Major General John Batiste, USA (Ret.)
General Batiste commanded the First Infantry Division in Kosovo and Iraq. Prior to that he was the Senior
Military Assistant to Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz. He is currently President of Klein Steel
Services in Rochester, NY.
Major General Eugene Fox, USA (Ret.)
Major General Fox retired from the U.S Army in 1989 after 33 years of service. He commanded Field
Artillery and Air Defense Units from platoon to brigade level, instructed in a service school, and served in
various capacities in the acquisition of DoD weapons systems to include several years as program manager.
His last active duty position was the Deputy Director of the Strategic Defense Initiative Office. Subsequent
to military retirement General Fox has served as a Defense Consultant for various companies and
government agencies.
Major General John Fugh, USA (Ret.)
General Fugh was The Judge Advocate General of the U.S. Army, retiring from that post in July 1993 as a
Major General. General Fugh was 15 years old when he migrated to the United States with his family from
China. He was the first Chinese-American to attain General officer status in the U.S. Army. General Fugh
currently lives in the Washington, D.C. metropolitan area.
Rear Admiral Don Guter, USN (Ret.)
Admiral Guter served in the U.S. Navy for 32 years, concluding his career as the Navy’s Judge Advocate
General from 2000 to 2002. Admiral Guter currently serves as the Dean of Duquesne University Law School
in Pittsburgh, PA
Major General Fred E. Haynes, USMC (Ret.)
Major General Haynes is a combat veteran of World War II, Korea and Vietnam. He was a captain in the
regiment that seized Mt Suribachi, Iwo Jima and raised the American flag there, 23 February 1945. In Korea,
he was Executive Officer of the 2nd Bn, 1st Marines. During Vietnam, he commanded the Fifth Marines, and
was G-3 of the Third Marine Amphibious Force. During the Kennedy and Johnson eras, he served as
Pentagon Director, Near Eastern and South Asian Affairs. As a general officer he commanded the Second
and Third Marine Divisions. He was the Senior Member of the United Nations Military Armistice
Commission in Korea, and was Deputy Chief of Staff for Marine Corps Research and Development. He is
chairman of the Combat Veterans of Iwo Jima, Chairman Emeritus Of the American Turkish Council and a
member of the Council on Foreign Relations. Haynes lives in New York and is currently writing a book, We
Walk By Faith, the story of Combat Team Twenty-eight and the Battle of Iwo Jima.
Rear Admiral John D. Hutson, JAGC, USN (Ret.)
Rear Admiral John D. Hutson served in the U. S. Navy from 1973 to 2000. He was the Navy's Judge
Advocate General from 1997 to 2000. Admiral Hutson now serves as President and Dean of the Franklin
Pierce Law Center in Concord, New Hampshire. He also joined Human Rights First’s Board of Directors in
2005.
Major General Melvyn Montano, ANG (Ret.)
General Montano was the adjutant general in charge of the National Guard in New Mexico from 1994 to
1999. He served in Vietnam and was the first Hispanic Air National Guard officer appointed as an adjutant
general in the country.
Major General Gerald T. Sajer, USA (Ret.)
Major General Sajer was the Adjutant General of Pennsylvania from l987-1995. He served as the assistant
Division Commander for maneuver of the 28th Infantry Division, and previously served as the Division's
chief of staff and G-3. During the Korean War, he served as a Captain. A graduate of Tufts University and
Harvard Law School, General Sajer practiced law in the Harrisburg area for 30 years, specializing in civil
litigation. He and his wife have been married for 50 years and have 6 children and 15 grandchildren. They
live on a farm near Gettysburg.
Major General Michael J. Scotti Jr., USA (Ret.)
General Scotti served over 30 years from battalion surgeon in the Vietnam conflict to commanding all Army
medical forces in Europe following the dissolution of the Soviet Union, the Gulf War and during the
conflicts in the former Yugoslavia. During his service he was consultant to the Army Surgeon General for
ambulatory care, graduate medical education and quality assurance as well as chief of the Medical Corps.
After military service he served as the senior vice president of the American Medical Association for
Professional Services with responsibility for developing and implementing policy in ethics, medical
education and clinical care.
Brigadier General David M. Brahms, USMC (Ret.)
General Brahms served in the Marine Corps from 1963-1988. He served as the Marine Corps' senior legal
adviser from 1983 until his retirement in 1988. General Brahms currently practices law in Carlsbad,
California and sits on the board of directors of the Judge Advocates Association.
Brigadier General James P. Cullen, USA (Ret.)
Mr. Cullen is a retired Brigadier General in the United States Army Reserve Judge Advocate General's Corps
and last served as the Chief Judge (IMA) of the U.S. Army Court of Criminal Appeals. He currently practices
law in New York City.
Brigadier General Evelyn P. Foote, USA (Ret.)
General Foote was Commanding General of Fort Belvoir in 1989. She was recalled to active duty in 1996 to
serve as Vice Chair of the Secretary of the Army's Senior Review Panel on Sexual Harassment. She is
President of the Alliance for National Defense, a non-profit organization.
Brigadier General David R. Irvine, USA (Ret.)
Brigadier General Irvine enlisted in the 96th Infantry Division, United States Army Reserve, in 1962. He
received a direct commission in 1967 as a strategic intelligence officer. He maintained a faculty assignment
for 18 years with the Sixth U.S. Army Intelligence School, and taught prisoner of war interrogation and
military law for several hundred soldiers, Marines, and airmen. He retired in 2002, and his last assignment
was Deputy Commander for the 96th Regional Readiness Command. General Irvine is an attorney, and
practices law in Salt Lake City, Utah. He served 4 terms as a Republican legislator in the Utah House of
Representatives, has served as a congressional chief of staff, and served as a commissioner on the Utah
Public Utilities Commission.
Brigadier General John H. Johns, USA (Ret.)
Brigadier General John H. Johns, USA (Ret), Ph.D., served in Vietnam and was a key member of a group
that developed the Army's counterinsurgency doctrine in the early 1960s at Ft. Bragg and later in the
Pentagon. After retirement from active duty, he served as a Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense and then
as a professor at the National Defense University for 14 years, where he specialized in National Security
Strategy.
Brigadier General Richard O’Meara, USA (Ret.)
Brigadier General Richard O’Meara is a combat decorated veteran who fought in Vietnam before earning his
law degree and joining the Army's Judge Advocate General Corps. He retired from the Army Reserves in
2002 and now teaches courses on Human Rights and History at Kean University and at Monmouth
University.
Brigadier General Murray G. Sagsveen, USA (Ret.)
Brigadier General Sagsveen entered the U.S. Army in 1968, with initial service in the Republic of Korea. He
later joined the North Dakota Army National Guard. His assignments included Staff Judge Advocate for the
164th Engineer Group, Staff Judge Advocate for the State Area Command, Special Assistant to the National
Guard Bureau Judge Advocate, and Army National Guard Special Assistant to the Judge Advocate General
of the Army. He completed the U.S. Army War College in 1988. At the time of his retirement in 1996, he
was a brigadier general and the senior judge advocate in the Army National Guard. General Sagsveen
currently serves as the general counsel of the American Academy of Neurology in St. Paul, Minnesota. In
February 2004, he participated in a medical conference in Baghdad, Iraq, and he has been participating in
an effort among U.S. specialty medical societies to assist physicians in that country.
Brigadier General John K. Schmitt, USA (Ret.)
General Schmitt served in the U.S. Army for 29 years. He was Assistant Chief of Staff for Operations,
Kosovo Forces (KFOR), from late-1999 through mid-2000. He directed military operations there that
restored security in the country and provided operational strategic direction for the international community
to carry out humanitarian, social and economic programs.
Brigadier General Anthony Verrengia, USAF (Ret.)
Brigadier General Stephen N. Xenakis, USA (Ret.)
Dr. Stephen N. Xenakis has served in the U.S. Army, as well as in healthcare management, academic
medicine, and clinical practice. He retired from the Army in 1998 at the rank of Brigadier General and held
many high level positions, including Commanding General of the Southeast Regional Army Medical
Command. He currently serves as the Director of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry at the Psychiatric Institute
of Washington.
Ambassador Pete Peterson, USAF (Ret.)
Ambassador Peterson served as the ambassador to the Socialist Republic of Vietnam until 2001. Prior to his
diplomatic posting, Ambassador Peterson served three terms as a member of the United States House of
Representatives, representing the Second Congressional District of Florida. He served 26 years in the United
States Air Force having served in worldwide assignments as a fighter pilot and commander. He is a
distinguished combat veteran of the Vietnam War and was incarcerated as a POW during that conflict for
more than six years. He completed his military service in 1981 and has extensive experience in the private
sector.
Colonel Lawrence B. Wilkerson, USA (Ret.)
Colonel Wilkerson joined General Colin L. Powell in March 1989 at the U.S. Army’s Forces Command in
Atlanta, Georgia as his Deputy Executive Officer. He followed the General to his next position as Chairman
of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff, serving as his special assistant. Upon Powell's retirement from active
service in 1993, Colonel Wilkerson served as the Deputy Director and Director of the U.S. Marine Corps
War College at Quantico, Virginia. Upon Wilkerson’s retirement from active service in 1997, he began
working for General Powell in a private capacity as a consultant and advisor.
Honorable Richard Danzig
Mr. Danzig was the 71st Secretary of the Navy from November 1998 to January 20, 2001. He served as
Under Secretary of the Navy between November 1993 and May 1997. Mr. Danzig received his J.D. degree
from Yale Law School, and Bachelor of Philosophy and Doctor of Philosophy degrees from Oxford
University, where he was a Rhodes Scholar. Upon his graduation from Yale, Mr. Danzig served as a law
clerk to U.S. Supreme Court Justice Byron White. He then went on to teach law at Stanford University. Mr.
Danzig moved to Washington, DC in 1977 to serve as the Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense
for Manpower, Reserve Affairs and Logistics. In 1981 he joined the law firm of Latham and Watkins and
practiced law until 1993 when he became Under Secretary of the Navy. Mr. Danzig currently consults on
business, government and legal matters.
Honorable William H. Taft IV
William H. Taft, IV served as the Legal Adviser to the Department of State for four years beginning in 2001.
His government service also includes service as: U.S. Permanent Representative to NATO from 1989 to
1992; Deputy Secretary of Defense from January 1984 to April 1989; and General Counsel for the
Department of Defense from 1981 to 1984. Mr. Taft also served as Acting Secretary of Defense from
January to March 1989. Mr. Taft is currently Of Counsel at in the Washington, DC office of Fried, Frank,
Harris, Shriver & Jacobson LLP. Mr. Taft received his JD in 1969 from Harvard Law School and his BA in
1966 from Yale University.
Frank Kendall III, Esq.
Mr. Kendall was the Vice Chairman of the Defense Intelligence Agency Advisory Board for approximately
six years. As the Director of Tactical Warfare Programs in the Office of the Secretary of Defense from 1989
to 1994 he was responsible for oversight of all tactical warfare development programs. Prior to holding this
position, he served as the Assistant Deputy Under Secretary of Defense for Strategic Defense Systems. Mr.
Kendall is a West Point graduate and a retired Lt. Col. in the Army Reserves. He is an attorney licensed in
Virginia and New York.
|
|
|
|
| NCMike06 |
Keep trying...and while your at it, thank Bush for the program that keeps you safe. You want the details..watch this video:
http://hotair.com/archives/2006/09/...orture-tactics/
Waterboarding works, has worked, and will work. Even those who oppose its use realize that it works.
Too bad AB...you lose.
Try again. |
|
|
| redeye |
Brian Ross, the chief investigative correspondent for ABC was on The O'Reilly Factor last night. He said that all of his CIA sources, a portion of whom opposed controversial interrogation methods on legal or moral grounds, agreed that those methods worked to break all 14 high-value al-Qaeda leaders in custody at Club Gitmo. In some cases, Al-Qaeda members and plots were revealed, saving lives. In addition, ladies and gentlemen, it was revealed that Ramzi Binalshibh was crying like a three-year-old.
Now, this is going to make it tough for John McCain and Lindsey Graham and Warner. And I still maintain to you that it is not the White House caving on whatever deal is being negotiated. Even MSNBC earlier today, has discussions on whether or not McCain's position is hurting him and his presidential perspirations for the 2008 presidential election. So the media buzz is not that the White House has caved. If the White House had truly caved, they'd be singing victory chants for Senator McCain. Now they're worried whether or not his efforts have actually provided a new source of concern and a new element of self-inflicted harm for the great senator from Arizona.
"The CIA broke 14 top Al-Qaeda leaders. This is Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, Ramzi Binalshibh, Zubaydah, all 14 coerced, the worst thing that they did to them, water boarding?
ROSS:
Fourteen high value prisoners they have kept in secret prisoners and they have used these coercive techniques, that is the most harshest of the treatments and that's where a man is put upside down, they put a cellophane or a cloth over his mouth, they pour water, it gives the impression that the person is drowning. Now, some people liken it to a mock execution. It's very tough to withstand. When the CIA officers who are trained in these interrogations go through it themselves, some of them couldn't last more than 35, 40 seconds.
ROSS:
About two and a half minutes, according to our CIA sources. Twenty, 30 seconds is the most people can take of this technique, it's that harsh.
ROSS:
It was just too tough. Some of these guys are not that tough. Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was very tough. They actually threatened to do something to his children who were captured in the course of picking him up, and he reportedly said that's okay, they'll see Allah sooner.
ROSS:
In the case of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the information was very valuable, particularly names and addresses of people who were involved with Al-Qaeda in this country and in Europe, and one particular plot which involved an airline attack on the tallest building in Los Angeles known as the Library Tower. It's clear in several cases with Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, with people who absolutely beyond a doubt are terrorists, terrorist masterminds, it does seem to have an effect, and that's just the bottom line. Certainly if you interrupt a plot to bomb a tower in Los Angeles, you've saved lives. It has worked, it has thwarted plots.
That's Brian Ross, ABC News on The O'Reilly Factor last night. So what you have here is a testament, this guy has his CIA sources, he claims that some of them are not even people that agree with the techniques, but he admits, "Hey, if you interrupted a plot to bomb a tower in Los Angeles, you saved lives. The techniques worked." |
|
|
| NCMike06 |
According to 14 Al Qaueda Prisoners....aggressive interrogations work.
Remember...If waterboarding is torture, then torture works..
If waterboarding is not torture, we are not torturing anyone anyway. (so whats the big deal) |
|
|
| harley-davidson |
why don't you two big mouth pussies enlist and serve your leader...ie browneya,ncmike06
instead of running your face in this forum,jesus christ the war will be over in a week with you two fuckwads over there...go apply your info to iraq they need you...go tell the people of iraq how fucking good they have it since bush...lol |
|
|
| Reverend Tyler |
| Dont you get it? They are supporting the troops by ignoring what the millitary would like to do. What the hell does Colin Powell know about the millitary? His opinion is obviously worthless. Aint I right, guys? |
|
|
| NCMike06 |
Quote: Originally posted by harley-davidson
why don't you two big mouth pussies enlist and serve your leader...ie browneya,ncmike06
instead of running your face in this forum,jesus christ the war will be over in a week with you two fuckwads over there...go apply your info to iraq they need you...go tell the people of iraq how fucking good they have it since bush...lol |
Have you had your LSD hit today yet?? |
|
|
| harley-davidson |
[QUOTE]Have you had your LSD hit today yet??[/QUOT
i don't do drugs but unlike you i'll fight if the cause is worth it...you couldn't fight your way out of a wet paper bag ..your a candy ass with a bush fetish..and your a piece of shit |
|
|
| FatesWebb |
Quote: Originally posted by NCMike06
Have you had your LSD hit today yet?? |
Nah, my MKULTRA officer hasnt visited yet |
|
|
| Luther |
| Whether Torture Works Or Not, Terrorists Deserve It. If You Are Going To Intentionally Kill Innocent People, I Have No Pity On You, And You Deserve To Be Tortured. For Them Death Is A Fate Too Good. |
|
|
| Crazytree |
Quote: Originally posted by NCMike06
According to 14 Al Qaueda Prisoners....aggressive interrogations work. |
really? they gave statements?
oh wait that's right... you're a fucking bushbot who believes anything he reads that supports the president. :rolleyes: |
|
|
| FatesWebb |
| he also cant even spell Al Qaeda |
|
|
| Kill Van Kull |
Brave Americans who have served or have/are willing to serve in the military by-and-large do not support torture as a means of interrogation. We know that if we use it, the is a higher likelihood that it will be used on us.
Pussy non-serving cowards support it because there is no possibility that they will ever have to be subjected to it while they sit fat behind their computer screens.
Which one are you? |
|
|
| txcoltfan |
| Those men quoted in the piece are traitors and a disgrace to the military. They should move to Iran. :rolleyes: |
|
|
| NCMike06 |
Quote: Originally posted by Crazytree
really? they gave statements?
oh wait that's right... you're a fucking bushbot who believes anything he reads that supports the president. :rolleyes: |
Twiggy, you missed this information. Please upload it so you don't look like such a stupid ass leftbot again:
http://hotair.com/archives/2006/09/...orture-tactics/
Be sure and watch the video...
TWIGGY - AKA - CRAZYTREE |
|
|
| NCMike06 |
Quote: Originally posted by Kill Van Kull
Brave Americans who have served or have/are willing to serve in the military by-and-large do not support torture as a means of interrogation. We know that if we use it, the is a higher likelihood that it will be used on us.
Pussy non-serving cowards support it because there is no possibility that they will ever have to be subjected to it while they sit fat behind their computer screens.
Which one are you? |
I wonder if your dumb ass could be one of those saved because this program has stopped terrorist attacks in this country. hmmmmm
Al Qaeda cuts the heads off its prisoners.....do you consider that torture?? |
|
|
| FatesWebb |
Quote: Originally posted by NCMike06
I wonder if your dumb ass could be one of those saved because this program has stopped terrorist attacks in this country. hmmmmm
Al Qaeda cuts the heads off its prisoners.....do you consider that torture?? |
Bullshit, like I said which you refuse to answer, KSM was in custody, 10 years ago, why was he let go? when we knew he planned the 9/11 attacks???? (because he was really CIA is why)
also where is he now?
you are believing the lies mike, and now you are perpetuating them.
FW |
|
|
| FatesWebb |
| you will see, as soon as your terrorist is removed from office, all these lies will stop. |
|
|
| GyroPyro |
| 45 Military leaders with an ax to grind |
|
|
| Kill Van Kull |
| Clearly, the kool-aid drinking bushbot has never served and is not willing because he is a giant pussy. Thanks for clearing that up for us (as if we didn't know). |
|
|
| Ass Boil |
Quote: Originally posted by GyroPyro
45 Military leaders with an ax to grind |
Wait, aren't you idiots always telling us how "republican" the military is? Now all of a sudden the entire recently retired leadership is a bunch of lefties?
The "axe" these guys have to grind is with George W. Asshole being the absolute worst commander in chief in American history.
It is unprecedented for these guys to speak out this way. The unbelievable incompetence and corruption of this administration has FORCED them to speak out.
You sir, are a douchebag... |
|
|
| Crazytree |
you're the one always complaining about the quality of sources... yet you're posing a website called HOTAIR.COM as authoratative???
fuck off. :rolleyes: |
|
|
| NCMike06 |
Quote: Originally posted by Crazytree
you're the one always complaining about the quality of sources... yet you're posing a website called HOTAIR.COM as authoratative???
fuck off. :rolleyes: |
Obviously...you didn't click the link, or watch the video of Brian Ross, of ABC television. Im sure that the website faked the entire thing. (why would you want to watch something, and maybe learn something....you might not get embarrased on EVERY issue.)
But, I guess thats in your programming...
Everytime I think that you can't get more stupid....you prove me wrong and post something even more stupid than you did the last time. Amazing. |
|
|
| incoherent |
Quote: Originally posted by NCMike06
Keep trying...and while your at it, thank Bush for the program that keeps you safe. You want the details..watch this video:
http://hotair.com/archives/2006/09/...orture-tactics/
Waterboarding works, has worked, and will work. Even those who oppose its use realize that it works.
Too bad AB...you lose.
Try again. |
1) Hey, look who it is. It's cut-and-run NCMike06, back from his MANY CUT-AND-RUN scrambles back into his spider-hole after being challenged. We'll see how well he holds up here. Or will you be too afraid to even answer, like all over SFN?
2) There are NUMEROUS problems with your "hot air" source, which you link to but neglect to quote. Why? Afraid their crap will be evident if you actually LIST it?
Hot Air Quote: "Anti-”torture” absolutists like Sullivan adamantly deny that harsh tactics produce reliable information."
1) Prove Sullivan ever said "harsh tactics" produce information. Sullivan has said (as have MANY military) that torture often produces false information, since the tortured person will confess anything to stop the torture, even if he knows nothing. Do you fail to grasp that, NCMike?
"Not only did they break Khaled Sheikh Mohammed; not only was the information he gave them valuable; not only did it save lives;"
2) Prove that non-torture tactics would have failed to gain the same information.
"but Ross’s sources include people within the CIA who are opposed to the practices."
3) Prove it. Ross's "sources" are all UNSOURCED! How can anyone CONFIRM that these CIA people actually opposed the practices at all? How do you know they were not lying to sell their torture? (Or, more accurately, to sell Congress on passing get-out-of-torture-charges-free legislation?)
We await NCMike's "proof."
Will NCMike's proof be nothing more than "I take unnamed CIA torturers at their word, because the CIA has never been deceptive to the American people"? |
|
|
| Crazytree |
Quote: Originally posted by NCMike06
Obviously...you didn't click the link, or watch the video of Brian Ross, of ABC television. Im sure that the website faked the entire thing. (why would you want to watch something, and maybe learn something....you might not get embarrased on EVERY issue.)
But, I guess thats in your programming...
Everytime I think that you can't get more stupid....you prove me wrong and post something even more stupid than you did the last time. Amazing. |
find any examples of the estate tax putting family-owned concerns out of business yet? please refer to my sig for more information. :p |
|
|
| Kill Van Kull |
These pro-torture pukes like to put our troops in jeopardy. They never have and never will serve, but like to talk tough. When it's not your ass that's on-the-line, who cares?
Same assholes that drive around with the yellow magnetic ribbon on the back of their cars.
Support the troops, my ass. |
|
|
| Reverend Tyler |
Quote: Originally posted by Luther
Whether Torture Works Or Not, Terrorists Deserve It. If You Are Going To Intentionally Kill Innocent People, I Have No Pity On You, And You Deserve To Be Tortured. For Them Death Is A Fate Too Good. |
What about the ones that end up being innocent? Like almost everybody at Abu Ghraib?
No big whoop?
Republicans have no morals |
|
|
| intelliplus |
I wrote somewhere else in this forum:
"Show me as to how many Muslim countries have Democracy. The number is almost negligible. Most are ruled by dictators. Muslims are a violent race , have a violent religion and they can only be controlled by violence.
They know no other language.
That is why no parleys with them ever yield any result.
The Pope made a joker of himself , not by telling the reality about Muhammad, but by apologising.
No one in the Muslim World paid any heed to his apologies .
They only need to be kicked without any sense of apology.
They deserve to be ruled by rod and so are they!"
SAME is true about extracting information from Islamic terrorists. Terrorists have to be terrorized to make them stop terrorism. It is a well- known fact. Even if you do not torture them, they will keep capturing, ruthlessly torturing and decapitating you.
Even if you would show a copy of this thread to them that you spoke against torture to them, still you will be skinned by them like chicken without mercy; REST ASSURED.
WAKE UP. |
|
|
| NCMike06 |
Quote: Originally posted by Reverend Tyler
What about the ones that end up being innocent? Like almost everybody at Abu Ghraib?
No big whoop?
Republicans have no morals |
WHat??? DO you even understand the controversy concerning Abu Ghraib?? |
|
|
| Billyfromsphily |
Quote: Originally posted by NCMike06
WHat??? DO you even understand the controversy concerning Abu Ghraib?? |
Yeah and it was blaimed on the troops with the officers skating away untouched.....Just like the phonies who wil be swept out in November. |
|
|
| redeye |
Quote: Originally posted by Reverend Tyler
What about the ones that end up being innocent? Like almost everybody at Abu Ghraib?
No big whoop?
Republicans have no morals |
GUANTANAMO BAY, CUBA
Interrogations are limited to four hours, usually running two - and (of course) are interrupted for prayers. One interrogator actually bakes cookies for detainees, while another serves them Subway or McDonald's sandwiches. Both are available on base. (Filet o' Fish is an al Qaeda favorite.)
Interrogations are not video or audio taped, perhaps to preserve detainee privacy.
Call it excessive compassion by a nation devoted to therapy, but it's dangerous. Adm. Harris admitted to me that a multi-cell al Qaeda network has developed in the camp. Military intelligence can't yet identify their leaders, but notes that they have cells for monitoring the movements and identities of guards and doctors, cells dedicated to training, others for making weapons and so on.
And they can make weapons from almost anything. Guards have been attacked with springs taken from inside faucets, broken fluorescent light bulbs and fan blades. Some are more elaborate. "These folks are MacGyvers," Harris said.
Other cells pass messages from leaders in one camp to followers in others. How? Detainees use the envelopes sent to them by their attorneys to pass messages. (Some 1,000 lawyers represent 440 prisoners, all on a pro bono basis, with more than 18,500 letters in and out of Gitmo in the past year.) Guards are not allowed to look inside these envelopes because of "attorney-client privilege" - even if they know the document inside is an Arabic-language note written by a prisoner to another prisoner and not a letter to or from a lawyer.
That's right: Accidentally or not, American lawyers are helping al Qaeda prisoners continue to plot.
There is little doubt what this note-passing and weapons-making is used for. The military recorded 3,232 incidents of detainee misconduct from July 2005 to August 2006 - an average of more than eight incidents per day. Some are nonviolent, but the tally includes coordinated attacks involving everything from throwing bodily fluids on guards (432 times) to 90 stabbings with homemade knives.
One detainee slashed a doctor who was trying to save his life; the doctors wear body armor to treat their patients.
The kinder we are to terrorists, the harsher we are to their potential victims.
Striking the balance between these two goods (humane treatment, foreknowledge of deadly attacks) is difficult, but the Bush administration seems to lean too far in the direction of the detainees. No expense spared for al Qaeda health care: Some 5,000 dental operations (including teeth cleanings) and 5,000 vaccinations on a total of 550 detainees have been performed since 2002 - all at taxpayer expense. Eyeglasses? 174 pairs handed out. Twenty two detainees have taxpayer-paid prosthetic limbs. And so on.
What if a detainee confesses a weakness (like fear of the dark) to a doctor that might be useful to interrogators, I asked the doctor in charge, would he share that information with them? "My job is not to make interrogations more efficient," he said firmly. He cited doctor-patient privacy. (He also asked that his name not be printed, citing the potential for al Qaeda retaliation.)
Food is strictly halal and averages 4,200 calories per day. |
|
|
| Ass Boil |
Wow. We've never seen that post before. How interesting....
And still refuses to provide a link for it after posting at least 100 times.
You are a tool, browneye. |
|
|
| NCMike06 |
Quote: Originally posted by Crazytree
find any examples of the estate tax putting family-owned concerns out of business yet? please refer to my sig for more information. :p |
I had the info too begin with, and could post more information concerning the Estate tax then you would care to read, although given the fact that you refuse to read/watch anything that runs against your left wing programming, I doubt you would read it anyway. (see example above for confirmation) I guess you are too busy pretending to be a lawyer, to actually read anything.
It was just too funny watching you pop a gasket that day :burst:
Ohh, and did you get your list together of all the people you know who supposedly are beneficiaries of large estates, as you claimed you knew many. ??
Bye Twiggy
TWIGGY - AKA - CRAZYTREE |
|
|
| incoherent |
Quote: Originally posted by intelliplus
I wrote somewhere else in this forum:
"Show me as to how many Muslim countries have Democracy. The number is almost negligible. Most are ruled by dictators. Muslims are a violent race , have a violent religion and they can only be controlled by violence.
They know no other language.
That is why no parleys with them ever yield any result.
The Pope made a joker of himself , not by telling the reality about Muhammad, but by apologising.
No one in the Muslim World paid any heed to his apologies .
They only need to be kicked without any sense of apology.
They deserve to be ruled by rod and so are they!"
SAME is true about extracting information from Islamic terrorists. Terrorists have to be terrorized to make them stop terrorism. It is a well- known fact. Even if you do not torture them, they will keep capturing, ruthlessly torturing and decapitating you.
Even if you would show a copy of this thread to them that you spoke against torture to them, still you will be skinned by them like chicken without mercy; REST ASSURED.
WAKE UP. |
When you can prove that "Muslim" is a race, then we'll consider what you have to say. Until then, you are just another Islamophobe advertising his ignorance at the top of his lungs.
Like Stonewall. |
|
|
| incoherent |
Quote: Originally posted by NCMike06
WHat??? DO you even understand the controversy concerning Abu Ghraib?? |
Of course. And I have schooled you in it. And you cut and ran like Bush from his flight school physical.
Bye Bye, NCMike. Enjoy your spider hole.
Quote: Originally posted by NCMike06
Keep trying...and while your at it, thank Bush for the program that keeps you safe. You want the details..watch this video:
http://hotair.com/archives/2006/09/...orture-tactics/
Waterboarding works, has worked, and will work. Even those who oppose its use realize that it works.
Too bad AB...you lose.
Try again. |
1) Hey, look who it is. It's cut-and-run NCMike06, back from his MANY CUT-AND-RUN scrambles back into his spider-hole after being challenged. We'll see how well he holds up here. Or will you be too afraid to even answer, like all over SFN?
2) There are NUMEROUS problems with your "hot air" source, which you link to but neglect to quote. Why? Afraid their crap will be evident if you actually LIST it?
Hot Air Quote: "Anti-”torture” absolutists like Sullivan adamantly deny that harsh tactics produce reliable information."
1) Prove Sullivan ever said "harsh tactics" produce information. Sullivan has said (as have MANY military) that torture often produces false information, since the tortured person will confess anything to stop the torture, even if he knows nothing. Do you fail to grasp that, NCMike?
"Not only did they break Khaled Sheikh Mohammed; not only was the information he gave them valuable; not only did it save lives;"
2) Prove that non-torture tactics would have failed to gain the same information.
"but Ross’s sources include people within the CIA who are opposed to the practices."
3) Prove it. Ross's "sources" are all UNSOURCED! How can anyone CONFIRM that these CIA people actually opposed the practices at all? How do you know they were not lying to sell their torture? (Or, more accurately, to sell Congress on passing get-out-of-torture-charges-free legislation?)
We await NCMike's "proof."
Will NCMike's proof be nothing more than "I take unnamed CIA torturers at their word, because the CIA has never been deceptive to the American people"? |
|
|
| incoherent |
Quote: Originally posted by redeye
GUANTANAMO BAY, CUBA
Interrogations are limited to four hours, usually running two - and (of course) are interrupted for prayers. One interrogator actually bakes cookies for detainees, while another serves them Subway or McDonald's sandwiches. Both are available on base. (Filet o' Fish is an al Qaeda favorite.) |
Unfortunately for the torture-loving sadists on the right, baking cookies is actually MORE EFFECTIVE than torture at getting factual intelligence.
ANOTHER SPAM post from redeye, which redeye tries to pass off as his own work by FAILING AGAIN to attribute it. Could it be that redeye is really secretly CUTTING-AND-PASTING from a right-wing distortion site before secretly CUTTING-AND-RUNNING away?
Let's investigate.
http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/o...ard_miniter.htm
THE NEW YORK POST! Bwa-ha-ha-ha!
Those are the far-right liars owned by RUPERT MURDOCH, who also owns FOX news!
These are the CREEPS that LIED ABOUT HOWARD STERN GOING BACK TO TERRESTRIAL RADIO! (Causing John Mainelli to get the boot when Howard brought the FACTS!)
The New York Post under Murdoch is notorious for scrapping real journalism, for practicing conflict of interest advocacy disguised as journalism, and their willingness to cross the ethical line to help right-wing causes.
Murdoch's Post has been criticized from the beginning for what many consider its lurid headlines, sensationalism, and blatant advocacy. In 1980, the Columbia Journalism Review asserted that "the New York Post is no longer merely a journalistic problem. It is a social problem - a force for evil."[24]
Critics feel that the Post allows its editorial positions to shape its story selection and news coverage. But as the Post executive editor, Steven D. Cuozzo, sees it, it was the Post that "broke the elitist media stranglehold on the national agenda."[citation needed] Post supporters cite[citation needed] a series of recent scandals at the broadsheet New York Times as proof that this problem is scarcely unique to the Post.
According to a survey conducted by Pace University in 2004, the New York Post was rated the least credible major news outlet in New York, and the only news outlet to receive more responses calling it "not credible" than credible (44% not credible to 39% credible). [1]
This post is a joke, just like Cut-and-Run redeye. |
|
|
|
|
|
