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The Torture Myth
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| Ass Boil |
Quote:
washingtonpost.com
The Torture Myth
By Anne Applebaum
Wednesday, January 12, 2005; Page A21
Just for a moment, let's pretend that there is no moral, legal or constitutional problem with torture. Let's also imagine a clear-cut case: a terrorist who knows where bombs are about to explode in Iraq. To stop him, it seems that a wide range of Americans would be prepared to endorse "cruel and unusual" methods. In advance of confirmation hearings for Attorney General-designate Alberto Gonzales last week, the Wall Street Journal argued that such scenarios must be debated, since "what's at stake in this controversy is nothing less than the ability of U.S. forces to interrogate enemies who want to murder innocent civilians." Alan Dershowitz, the liberal legal scholar, has argued in the past that interrogators in such a case should get a "torture warrant" from a judge. Both of these arguments rest on an assumption: that torture -- defined as physical pressure during interrogation -- can be used to extract useful information.
But does torture work? The question has been asked many times since Sept. 11, 2001. I'm repeating it, however, because the Gonzales hearings inspired more articles about our lax methods ("Too Nice for Our Own Good" was one headline), because similar comments may follow this week's trial of Spec. Charles Graner, the alleged Abu Ghraib ringleader, and because I still cannot find a positive answer. I've heard it said that the Syrians and the Egyptians "really know how to get these things done." I've heard the Israelis mentioned, without proof. I've heard Algeria mentioned, too, but Darius Rejali, an academic who recently trolled through French archives, found no clear examples of how torture helped the French in Algeria -- and they lost that war anyway. "Liberals," argued an article in the liberal online magazine Slate a few months ago, "have a tendency to accept, all too eagerly, the argument that torture is ineffective." But it's also true that "realists," whether liberal or conservative, have a tendency to accept, all too eagerly, fictitious accounts of effective torture carried out by someone else.
By contrast, it is easy to find experienced U.S. officers who argue precisely the opposite. Meet, for example, retired Air Force Col. John Rothrock, who, as a young captain, headed a combat interrogation team in Vietnam. More than once he was faced with a ticking time-bomb scenario: a captured Vietcong guerrilla who knew of plans to kill Americans. What was done in such cases was "not nice," he says. "But we did not physically abuse them." Rothrock used psychology, the shock of capture and of the unexpected. Once, he let a prisoner see a wounded comrade die. Yet -- as he remembers saying to the "desperate and honorable officers" who wanted him to move faster -- "if I take a Bunsen burner to the guy's genitals, he's going to tell you just about anything," which would be pointless. Rothrock, who is no squishy liberal, says that he doesn't know "any professional intelligence officers of my generation who would think this is a good idea."
Or listen to Army Col. Stuart Herrington, a military intelligence specialist who conducted interrogations in Vietnam, Panama and Iraq during Desert Storm, and who was sent by the Pentagon in 2003 -- long before Abu Ghraib -- to assess interrogations in Iraq. Aside from its immorality and its illegality, says Herrington, torture is simply "not a good way to get information." In his experience, nine out of 10 people can be persuaded to talk with no "stress methods" at all, let alone cruel and unusual ones. Asked whether that would be true of religiously motivated fanatics, he says that the "batting average" might be lower: "perhaps six out of ten." And if you beat up the remaining four? "They'll just tell you anything to get you to stop."
Worse, you'll have the other side effects of torture. It "endangers our soldiers on the battlefield by encouraging reciprocity." It does "damage to our country's image" and undermines our credibility in Iraq. That, in the long run, outweighs any theoretical benefit. Herrington's confidential Pentagon report, which he won't discuss but which was leaked to The Post a month ago, goes farther. In that document, he warned that members of an elite military and CIA task force were abusing detainees in Iraq, that their activities could be "making gratuitous enemies" and that prisoner abuse "is counterproductive to the Coalition's efforts to win the cooperation of the Iraqi citizenry." Far from rescuing Americans, in other words, the use of "special methods" might help explain why the war is going so badly.
An up-to-date illustration of the colonel's point appeared in recently released FBI documents from the naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. These show, among other things, that some military intelligence officers wanted to use harsher interrogation methods than the FBI did. As a result, complained one inspector, "every time the FBI established a rapport with a detainee, the military would step in and the detainee would stop being cooperative." So much for the utility of torture.
Given the overwhelmingly negative evidence, the really interesting question is not whether torture works but why so many people in our society want to believe that it works. At the moment, there is a myth in circulation, a fable that goes something like this: Radical terrorists will take advantage of our fussy legality, so we may have to suspend it to beat them. Radical terrorists mock our namby-pamby prisons, so we must make them tougher. Radical terrorists are nasty, so to defeat them we have to be nastier.
Perhaps it's reassuring to tell ourselves tales about the new forms of "toughness" we need, or to talk about the special rules we will create to defeat this special enemy. Unfortunately, that toughness is self-deceptive and self-destructive. Ultimately it will be self-defeating as well.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/w...anguage=printer |
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| NCMike06 |
Keep trying...and while your at it, thank Bush for the program that keeps you safe. You want the details..watch this video:
http://hotair.com/archives/2006/09/...orture-tactics/
Waterboarding works, has worked, and will work. Even those who oppose its use realize that it works.
Too bad AB...you lose.
Try again. |
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| Timmy |
I posted this in another thread. I wonder what info they got out of this guy???
http://abcnews.go.com/International...TC-RSSFeeds0312
TORONTO Sep 19, 2006 (AP)— The United States "very likely" sent a Canadian software engineer to Syria, where he was tortured, based on the false accusation by Canadian authorities that he was suspected of links to al-Qaida, according to a new government report.
Syrian-born Maher Arar was exonerated of all suspicion of terrorist activity by the 2 1/2-year commission of inquiry into his case Arar is perhaps the world's best-known case of extraordinary rendition the U.S. transfer of foreign terror suspects to third countries without court approval. |
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| Little Bastard |
| i believe it |
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| NCMike06 |
Quote: Originally posted by Timmy
I posted this in another thread. I wonder what info they got out of this guy???
http://abcnews.go.com/International...TC-RSSFeeds0312
TORONTO Sep 19, 2006 (AP)— The United States "very likely" sent a Canadian software engineer to Syria, where he was tortured, based on the false accusation by Canadian authorities that he was suspected of links to al-Qaida, according to a new government report.
Syrian-born Maher Arar was exonerated of all suspicion of terrorist activity by the 2 1/2-year commission of inquiry into his case Arar is perhaps the world's best-known case of extraordinary rendition the U.S. transfer of foreign terror suspects to third countries without court approval. |
Why don't you ask the Canadian authorities...they provided most of the info. And how is it that you are oblivious to the fact that the Al Qaeda 14 were captured and gave up information that saved lives. I guess that doesn't matter to you, because you can't fit that into your hate Bush worldview. Unfortunately for you, American lives were saved via aggressive interrogations. |
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| Timmy |
Quote: Originally posted by NCMike06
Why don't you ask the Canadian authorities...they provided most of the info. And how is it that you are oblivious to the fact that the Al Qaeda 14 were captured and gave up information that saved lives. I guess that doesn't matter to you, because you can't fit that into your hate Bush worldview. Unfortunately for you, American lives were saved via aggressive interrogations. |
What about all the GITMO people who were let go? Obviously they arent terrorists but at one point they were all thought to be superdangerous al-queda operatives. Is it ok to torture those guys? |
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| Timmy |
| By the way. Where do you think the US gets its info on people?? From reliable sources?? Yeah sure. |
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| patcracker |
| Quote: What about all the GITMO people who were let go? Obviously they arent terrorists but at one point they were all thought to be superdangerous al-queda operatives. Is it ok to torture those guys? |
If we pull all thier fingernails off they want hate america or democracy.
:bs: |
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| NCMike06 |
Quote: Originally posted by Timmy
What about all the GITMO people who were let go? Obviously they arent terrorists but at one point they were all thought to be superdangerous al-queda operatives. Is it ok to torture those guys? |
Who has been tortured at GITMO..please be specific. |
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| FatesWebb |
Quote: Originally posted by NCMike06
Keep trying...and while your at it, thank Bush for the program that keeps you safe. You want the details..watch this video:
http://hotair.com/archives/2006/09/...orture-tactics/
Waterboarding works, has worked, and will work. Even those who oppose its use realize that it works.
Too bad AB...you lose.
Try again. |
you still have not commented on the fact that any innocent person would lie to get you to stop. do you believe in the death penalty without evidence in america? why would you want something that delivers lies from the innocent? its not like you are finding these people guilty then getting more information. they are not even allowed to know what evidence is against them, they dont have a lawyer, they arent being given fair trial. and if they get a trial or if they are charged at all. so far this could be bob hope we wouldnt know...
but you want to torture him? I hope you get accused of being a terrorist. and then get tortured, without any evidence. tell me you wont confess when they drown you ass for a good 10 minutes.
That is the disconnect here, you just dont understand.
FW |
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| Timmy |
Quote: Originally posted by NCMike06
Who has been tortured at GITMO..please be specific. |
Youll have to ask the Gitom alumni.
My point is just cause someone gets the "terrorist" lable on them, that doesnt mean they are a terrorist. Even the gitmo folks are being let go. (even if it is after months of detention).
They can be torturing inncocent people. And wouldnt they get the worse torture? Since they have no info to give, how can they stop the tortures who are trying to break them. They cant be broken cause they dont have info. Other than just making shit up. |
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| FatesWebb |
Quote: Originally posted by NCMike06
Who has been tortured at GITMO..please be specific. |
you act like the whole world doesnt know about it.
I suppose a shadow isnt specific?
and yes people HAVE been bitten. and YES it is listed as torture!!
Austrailians, David Hicks, Mamdouh Habib to be specific. there are more! think of this as your torture XLS file.
Martin Mubanga, http://emedia.amnesty.org/uk-301105-eng-mm.ram
Three British prisoners, now known in the media as the "Tipton Three" were released in 2004 without charge.
The accounts of the British prisoners have been reiterated by two former French prisoners, a former Swedish prisoner, and a former Australian prisoner.
Swede Mehdi Ghezali, Moazzam Begg, Juma Al Dossary,
On July 27, 2004 four French detainees Mourad Benchellali, Nizar Sassi, Imad Kanouni and Brahim Yadel were repatriated and remanded in custody by the French intelligence agency Direction de la Surveillance du Territoire.[62] The remaining three French detainees Mustaq Ali Patel, Ridouane Khalid and Khaled Ben Mustafa were released in March 2005.[63]
On August 4, 2004, the three ex-detainees who were returned to the UK (who were freed by the British authorities within 24 hours of their return home), filed a report in the U.S. claiming persistent severe abuse at the Camp, of themselves and others.
of course there ARE MANY MANY MORE!!!
http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2003/s962052.htm
http://web.amnesty.org/pages/guantanamobay-index-eng
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exe...4DF5B161ADA.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guanta...detainment_camp
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4262095.stm
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/a.../hick-a12.shtml
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005...ain691602.shtml
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...5071302380.html
http://www.channel4.com/news/micros...ture/index.html
EVEN THE FBI ITSELF HAS MADE ALLEGATIONS OF TORTURE IN 2004!!!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...-2004Dec20.html
So mike QUIT PRETENDING LIKE EVERY MAJOR NEWS OUTLET HASNT REPORTED IT!
also EVERY ONE OF THE PEOPLE LISTED IN THIS EMAIL, (and more) not only were tortured, but were SET FREE AS INNOCENT!!!!!!!! |
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| harley-davidson |
| i wish they would drag his sorry ass down there now and give him a fucking taste...ncmoron06 |
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| NCMike06 |
Quote: Originally posted by FatesWebb
you still have not commented on the fact that any innocent person would lie to get you to stop. do you believe in the death penalty without evidence in america? why would you want something that delivers lies from the innocent? its not like you are finding these people guilty then getting more information. they are not even allowed to know what evidence is against them, they dont have a lawyer, they arent being given fair trial. and if they get a trial or if they are charged at all. so far this could be bob hope we wouldnt know...
but you want to torture him? I hope you get accused of being a terrorist. and then get tortured, without any evidence. tell me you wont confess when they drown you ass for a good 10 minutes.
That is the disconnect here, you just dont understand.
FW |
And you haven't commented about the FACT that these techniques have saved American lives. Why does that anger you so? |
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| Reverend Tyler |
| why not just use sodium pentathol, mike? |
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| FatesWebb |
Quote: Originally posted by NCMike06
And you haven't commented about the FACT that these techniques have saved American lives. Why does that anger you so? |
because I know it is a lie, terrorism is 1 BIG LIE, it is all made up by the government.
that is why, it hasnt saved 1 single life mike. actually it cost 3000 on 9/11
KSM was put there by the CIA, and is a lie.
You notice he cannot be found now, nobody knows his location or if he is even still in custody.
let me ask you this, why was he released when he was captured with plans for project bojinka? and to kill the pope???? then he was released after that.... hmmmmm.......
you need to watch the power of nightmares it will help you to understand why you feel the way that you do. you have been lied to. many many times.
FW |
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| FatesWebb |
Quote: Originally posted by NCMike06
And you haven't commented about the FACT that these techniques have saved American lives. Why does that anger you so? |
you have a new xls file to deny...
http://www.sternfannetwork.com/foru...370#post4355370
well it isnt XLS but if you want I can put it in there for you.... if it helps you deny.
FW |
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| FatesWebb |
Quote: Originally posted by Reverend Tyler
why not just use sodium pentathol, mike? |
You know the answer Rev, they arent looking for the truth, they are looking for a confession to being in al qaeda.... |
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| Crazytree |
Quote: Originally posted by NCMike06
Who has been tortured at GITMO..please be specific. |
Please name all the people who were in car accidents in Norway today. The implication is, if you can't name them... there were no car accidents in Norway today. |
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| FatesWebb |
but I provided several names from innocent people that were tortured at guantanamo bay.... just like when I posted the xls file....
come one mike still waiting for your denials, as to why all these innocent people needed to be tortured, and if you think that it was a fair thing to hold these innocent people for years while we tortured them, without any evidence, and without a trial, or even council. |
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| Kill Van Kull |
Torture works -- on TV shows -- which is where the majority of the bushbots get their "experience."
Those of us with real world interrogation experience know that the data shows it leads only to bad information.
Curve ball. |
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| Max-the-Silent |
Quote: Originally posted by NCMike06
Keep trying...and while your at it, thank Bush for the program that keeps you safe. You want the details..watch this video:
http://hotair.com/archives/2006/09/...orture-tactics/
Waterboarding works, has worked, and will work. Even those who oppose its use realize that it works.
Too bad AB...you lose.
Try again. |
We're all being tortured here by exposure to your idiotic posts, and we haven't given up one secret to you yet.
Talk to me when you've got a CIB. |
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| Crazytree |
| in all fairness... a Combat "V" will be acceptable as well. :D |
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| redeye |
Quote: Originally posted by Ass Boil
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You've been quit lately.
Brian Ross, the chief investigative correspondent for ABC was on The O'Reilly Factor last night. He said that all of his CIA sources, a portion of whom opposed controversial interrogation methods on legal or moral grounds, agreed that those methods worked to break all 14 high-value al-Qaeda leaders in custody at Club Gitmo. In some cases, Al-Qaeda members and plots were revealed, saving lives. In addition, ladies and gentlemen, it was revealed that Ramzi Binalshibh was crying like a three-year-old.
Now, this is going to make it tough for John McCain and Lindsey Graham and Warner. And I still maintain to you that it is not the White House caving on whatever deal is being negotiated. Even MSNBC earlier today, has discussions on whether or not McCain's position is hurting him and his presidential perspirations for the 2008 presidential election. So the media buzz is not that the White House has caved. If the White House had truly caved, they'd be singing victory chants for Senator McCain. Now they're worried whether or not his efforts have actually provided a new source of concern and a new element of self-inflicted harm for the great senator from Arizona.
"The CIA broke 14 top Al-Qaeda leaders. This is Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, Ramzi Binalshibh, Zubaydah, all 14 coerced, the worst thing that they did to them, water boarding?
ROSS:
Fourteen high value prisoners they have kept in secret prisoners and they have used these coercive techniques, that is the most harshest of the treatments and that's where a man is put upside down, they put a cellophane or a cloth over his mouth, they pour water, it gives the impression that the person is drowning. Now, some people liken it to a mock execution. It's very tough to withstand. When the CIA officers who are trained in these interrogations go through it themselves, some of them couldn't last more than 35, 40 seconds.
ROSS:
About two and a half minutes, according to our CIA sources. Twenty, 30 seconds is the most people can take of this technique, it's that harsh.
ROSS:
It was just too tough. Some of these guys are not that tough. Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was very tough. They actually threatened to do something to his children who were captured in the course of picking him up, and he reportedly said that's okay, they'll see Allah sooner.
ROSS:
In the case of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the information was very valuable, particularly names and addresses of people who were involved with Al-Qaeda in this country and in Europe, and one particular plot which involved an airline attack on the tallest building in Los Angeles known as the Library Tower. It's clear in several cases with Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, with people who absolutely beyond a doubt are terrorists, terrorist masterminds, it does seem to have an effect, and that's just the bottom line. Certainly if you interrupt a plot to bomb a tower in Los Angeles, you've saved lives. It has worked, it has thwarted plots.
That's Brian Ross, ABC News on The O'Reilly Factor last night. So what you have here is a testament, this guy has his CIA sources, he claims that some of them are not even people that agree with the techniques, but he admits, "Hey, if you interrupted a plot to bomb a tower in Los Angeles, you saved lives. The techniques worked." |
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| Ass Boil |
Quote: Originally posted by NCMike06
Keep trying...and while your at it, thank Bush for the program that keeps you safe. You want the details..watch this video:
http://hotair.com/archives/2006/09/...orture-tactics/
Waterboarding works, has worked, and will work. Even those who oppose its use realize that it works.
Too bad AB...you lose.
Try again. |
Uh, sorry bud. Once again you are only answering half the question. All you have done is confirm that Mohammed was waterboarded. Waterboarding is a mock execution, which is illegal under international law.
First, you refuse to address the possibility that the same information, if reliable, could have been gained by non-tortuous methods, making any information gained admissible in court.
Second, Ross is contradicting his previous comments on the same issue.
From the November 18 broadcast of ABC's World News Tonight:
Quote:
ROSS: The CIA sources say the sixth, and harshest, technique is called "waterboarding," in which a prisoner's face is covered with cellophane, and water is poured over it -- meant to trigger an unbearable gag reflex.
JOHN SIFTON (terrorism and counterterrorism researcher for Human Rights Watch): The person believes they're being killed, and as such, the thing really amounts to a mock execution, which is illegal under international law.
ROSS: The CIA officers say 9-11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed lasted the longest under waterboarding, two and a half minutes, before beginning to talk, with debatable results.
ROBERT BAER (former CIA case officer): You can get anybody to confess to anything, if the torture's bad enough. |
The CIA is FAR from agreement on the effectiveness of these techniques.
Quote:
CIA agents break ranks to disclose brutal ‘black sites’
by repost Monday, Dec. 05, 2005 at 8:49 PM
Details of the secret prisons and the methods used in them have emerged mainly from CIA officers themselves, who said the public needed to know “the direction their agency has chosen”. They broke ranks amid a furore in Washington over an amendment to the White House military spending package going through Congress. Senator John McCain (Republican), a former US Navy pilot who was captured and tortured in Vietnam, wants an unequivocal ban on all “cruel and inhuman” treatment of prisoners in US custody, including those held by the CIA.
By Raymond Whitaker
The Independent
WASHINGTON — Amid a growing row in the US over torture, a list of “enhanced interrogation techniques” used by CIA agents in secret prisons — including near-drowning, freezing, sleep deprivation, shaking and slapping — has been leaked. In at least one case, a prisoner has died.
The techniques have been authorised for use at CIA “black sites” abroad, at which top terror suspects are held. Last week the US-based organisation Human Rights Watch said “ghost detainees” were held at two military bases, in Poland and Romania. Similar sites in half a dozen other countries, leased from Britain, are now said to have been closed.
The existence of these detention facilities, and what happens inside them, are the most secret aspect of America’s “war on terror”. In contrast to military-run camps and prisons such as Guantanamo Bay in Cuba or Abu Ghraib in Iraq, where it was impossible to shield all CIA activity from outside scrutiny, the location of the “black sites” and the identities of those held there are made known only to a handful of senior officials in the US. In the host countries, only the president and top intelligence officials are aware of them.
Details of the secret prisons and the methods used in them have emerged mainly from CIA officers themselves, who said the public needed to know “the direction their agency has chosen”. They broke ranks amid a furore in Washington over an amendment to the White House military spending package going through Congress. Senator John McCain (Republican), a former US Navy pilot who was captured and tortured in Vietnam, wants an unequivocal ban on all “cruel and inhuman” treatment of prisoners in US custody, including those held by the CIA.
Eighty-nine of McCain’s fellow senators voted for his amendment, rejecting attempts by the CIA and Vice-President Dick Cheney — who said after 9/11 that “we have to work ... the dark side” — to exclude prisoners held at the “black sites”. For the first time President George Bush has threatened to exercise his veto on any defence bill that has the amendment attached.
The CIA prisons contain only the 30 or so most senior Al Qaeda captives. They include Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the alleged mastermind of the September 2001 attacks, Ramzi Binalshibh, another prime 9/11 suspect, and the Indonesian Riduan Isamuddin, better known as Hambali, accused of masterminding the Bali nightclub bombings in October 2002. Only the merest hints have emerged about their treatment, but according to the most graphic account, given to ABC News in the US, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed won the admiration of his interrogators by enduring “waterboarding” for up to two-and-a-half minutes before begging to confess. CIA officers who subjected themselves to the same technique lasted an average of 14 seconds.
ABC’s sources said that just over a dozen CIA interrogators were trained and authorised to use the “enhanced interrogation” techniques. At least three had declined involvement. The use of each technique on each prisoner had to be approved, stage by stage, up to the use of the “waterboard”. About a dozen “high-value” Al Qaeda targets had been interrogated in this way, and, as one put it: “All of these have confessed, none of them has died, and all of them remain incarcerated.” At least one death has been reported elsewhere, however. In a CIA facility in Kabul known as the “Salt Pit”, an officer, described as young and inexperienced, used the “cold treatment” on a detainee, who was left outdoors, naked, throughout a freezing Afghan night. He died of hypothermia. The case is being investigated, along with several others in Afghanistan and Iraq where interrogators — CIA officers, civilian contractors or members of the special forces — went well beyond the guidelines and suspects died as a result. Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson, chief of staff to Colin Powell when he was US Secretary of State, said last week that he knew of more than 70 “questionable deaths” of detainees under US supervision up to the end of 2002, when he left office. That figure, he added, was now around 90.
These incidents are in addition to the increasingly well-documented practice of “rendition”: flying suspects to Middle Eastern countries where torture and deaths in custody are routine. “If you want a good interrogation, you send them to Jordan. If you want them dead, you send them to Egypt or Syria,” one former CIA agent is reported as saying. The McCain amendment, however, will have no impact on foreign torturers. It is mainly aimed at halting the abuses exposed at Abu Ghraib, where routine humiliations degenerated into sadism.
Yet only the low-ranking military police caught on camera in Abu Ghraib have been prosecuted. America’s covert forces are operating in a climate of impunity, described by Cofer Black, then CIA counter-terrorism chief, who told a congressional committee in 2002: “After 9/11, the gloves were off.” At one point, according to Newsweek, the Bush administration formally told the CIA it could not be prosecuted for any technique short of inflicting the kind of pain that accompanies organ failure or death.
The normal justification is that such methods could help avert a terror attack in which thousands might be killed. But are there any cases to prove it? Claims that the “waterboarding” of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed produced details of planned attacks on the US were sceptically received by one CIA official, who said: “What we got was probably not truthful. And there’s no way of knowing whether what good information they got could not have been obtained by more traditional means.”
http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2005/12/1722723.php |
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| redeye |
Al-Qaeda members and plots were revealed, saving lives.
This means nothing to you because you are an American Taliban |
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| Ass Boil |
Quote: Originally posted by redeye
Al-Qaeda members and plots were revealed, saving lives.
This means nothing to you because you are an American Taliban |
Really? I guess the Bush administration "accidentally" chose to publicize the laughable Miami 7 "plot", and the far fetched UK liquid explosives plot, INSTEAD OF these plots supposedly involving Khalid Sheikh Mohammed?
You live in a dreamland. |
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| FatesWebb |
Quote: Originally posted by redeye
Al-Qaeda members and plots were revealed, saving lives.
This means nothing to you because you are an American Taliban |
you mean, that the lies made up by your CIA, and GW, were revealed. saving lives that the government would have taken... AL QAEDA and KSM are LIES!!!!! they are MADE UP BY THE CIA!!!! The only persons performing terror are the CIA!!!! for use as fearmongering propaganda.
You would believe that the sky was falling, if Bush told you so.
FW |
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| GyroPyro |
| who gives a shit whether Islamic Fascists are tortured or not. I don't care if we torture every single one of them cold-blooded killers till they die. |
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| Ass Boil |
Quote: Originally posted by GyroPyro
who gives a shit whether Islamic Fascists are tortured or not. I don't care if we torture every single one of them cold-blooded killers till they die. |
Wow. What a tough guy... I hope you are posting from your local recruiting center so you can lend a hand in your war against all 1.5 BILLION muslims. That's a lot of people to torture... Keep us updated on all the valuable info you extract.
Jackass. |
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| FatesWebb |
Quote: Originally posted by GyroPyro
who gives a shit whether Islamic Fascists are tortured or not. I don't care if we torture every single one of them cold-blooded killers till they die. |
you people.... I have a list of people, NO ISLAMICS BUT BRITISH, SWEDISH, AMERICAN AND CANADIANS!!!
that were tortured at guantanamo bay, and then released as innocent...
YOU fucking people are complete idiots. thinking that it is just islamic terrorists that are targeted....
WE ARE ALL BEING TARGETED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ARE YOU ON THIS LIST??? DOES THIS LIST SAY ISLAMIC ON IT?? NO! ACTUALLY IT SAYS CHRISTIAN!!!!
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| HotShotMagic |
Quote: Originally posted by NCMike06
And you haven't commented about the FACT that these techniques have saved American lives. Why does that anger you so? |
I guess it's safe to say that you support torture techniques. I do not. America is better than that. Our courts let guity people go everyday just to insure that one inocent man or woman is not incarcerated unjustly. |
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| Abba |
Quote: Originally posted by redeye
Al-Qaeda members and plots were revealed, saving lives.
This means nothing to you because you are an American Taliban |
Says who? Show me some evidence other than what's fabricated on your right wing propaganda sites?
You're the American Taliban here because you revel in hatred and destruction and pain for anyone who your shallow idiotic mind percieves as an enemy.
Either way, shut the fuck up child. I own your ass, and it's been proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that you fabricate "evidence" to support your fantasy claims.
Go fuck Stonewall and NCMoron, you ingrate. You have no credibility.
At least Dread can back up his hawkish opinions with real FACTS. He doesn't have to make shit up like yourself. |
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| NCMike06 |
Quote: Originally posted by Crazytree
Please name all the people who were in car accidents in Norway today. The implication is, if you can't name them... there were no car accidents in Norway today. |
Sorry bud...with appropriate research, individuals in those accidents could be found via police reports....however, I haven't made any claims about accident victims in Norway.
If you are going to claim that individuals have been tortured in Gitmo, you should be able to prove it. Please prove it.
There is no way you are a lawyer...are you allowed, in court, to make outrageous claims without proof?? Or, when you make a claim, are you required to offer some proof as to its validity. |
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| NCMike06 |
Quote: Originally posted by HotShotMagic
I guess it's safe to say that you support torture techniques. I do not. America is better than that. Our courts let guity people go everyday just to insure that one inocent man or woman is not incarcerated unjustly. |
I support the techniques that have led to the saving of American lives. Only the far left seems to consider them torture. |
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| harley-davidson |
| Quote: I support the techniques that have led to the saving of American lives. Only the far left seems to consider them torture. |
i wish we could get them to save us from asswipes like you and bush |
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| NCMike06 |
Quote: Originally posted by harley-davidson
i wish we could get them to save us from asswipes like you and bush |
Wow...what an intelligent, well thought out response. Impressive. |
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| FatesWebb |
Quote: Originally posted by NCMike06
I support the techniques that have led to the saving of American lives. Only the far left seems to consider them torture. |
prove it, it seems to be your point to every thing that it has saved americans, so prove it. (just like you would say) PROVE IT.
you cant, you know why? because it is a lie. that is why. you still wont even answer where is KSM, and why he was released after being busted trying to kill the pope, and in posession of the plots for bojinka which just so happened to be the 14 "terrorist's" plot, you are so proud of, and the 9/11 plots...
so why did we let him go?????
where is he now?????????
PROVE that lives were saved.... prove that the government doesnt intend on using the terror plots they " allegedly" waterboarded out of KSM, to kill americans, and prove that it is not simply a lie used as propaganda.
you cannot, because IT IS A LIE... EVERYTHING YOU STAND FOR ARE LIES, AND YOU CAN PROVE NO DIFFERENT. |
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| harley-davidson |
| Quote: Wow...what an intelligent, well thought out response. Impressive. |
short sweet and to the point shit for brains..... |
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| NCMike06 |
Quote: Originally posted by FatesWebb
prove it, it seems to be your point to every thing that it has saved americans, so prove it. (just like you would say) PROVE IT.
you cant, you know why? because it is a lie. that is why. you still wont even answer where is KSM, and why he was released after being busted trying to kill the pope, and in posession of the plots for bojinka which just so happened to be the 14 "terrorist's" plot, you are so proud of, and the 9/11 plots...
so why did we let him go?????
where is he now?????????
PROVE that lives were saved.... prove that the government doesnt intend on using the terror plots they " allegedly" waterboarded out of KSM, to kill americans, and prove that it is not simply a lie used as propaganda.
you cannot, because IT IS A LIE... EVERYTHING YOU STAND FOR ARE LIES, AND YOU CAN PROVE NO DIFFERENT. |
Watch the video I have posted numerous times.
You are such a dumb ass. |
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| FatesWebb |
Quote: Originally posted by NCMike06
Watch the video I have posted numerous times.
You are such a dumb ass. |
Im a dumbass? that is why your fake ass video link doesnt even work.. but you want me to watch it...
dumbass. |
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| NCMike06 |
Quote: Originally posted by FatesWebb
Im a dumbass? that is why your fake ass video link doesnt even work.. but you want me to watch it...
dumbass. |
Its a link to a webpage...scroll down just a bit...My apologies....I forgot your habit not to read anything...you probably saw words and were petrified.
Here is the original link...
http://hotair.com/archives/2006/09/...orture-tactics/
He is another link...you'll have to scroll down a little again...don't be afraid of those scary words.
http://www.foxnews.com/oreilly/index.html |
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| FatesWebb |
so how does this clip establish that KSM was not an insider, and that the whole thing is made up propaganda??
how does it answer the question I raised about why was KSM let go from when he was captured in 1996? attempting to allegedly kill the pope, with plans for 9/11 and the liquid terror plots?
how does it answer as to his current location?
Squeezing the terrorists? anonymous sources hah!!
THIS IS YOUR PROOF, ANONYMOUS SOURCES??? not a single verifiable fact!!!
this is complete bullshit mike, you believe it because it is all that you have, it is your only talking point. how is some guy in a suit, claiming anon. sources proof of anything?
the library tower plot OF KSM WAS UNCOVERED IN 1996, REUSED IN 2002 AND NOW REUSED AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THAT IS PROOF THAT IT IS A LIE!!!!!!
also here is more proof that that is a lie, why did 24 intelligence officers come out AND SAY IT WAS A LIE???????? your one asshole making claims from anonymous sources, or 24 intelligence officers. It requires you read, but Ill bold the important parts for you
here is ACTUAL proof not Orielly TWISTING some guys words even more than he did.... nice how orielly had to twist the guys words...
BUT HERE IS YOUR PROOF...
Bush Propaganda Architect Rove Promises October Surprise
Will PR coup be another Bin Laden campaign endorsement or something far deadlier?
September 21 2006
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/art...1615.shtml?s=lh
"Rove is not saying what the October surprise will be, writes Kesser, " asked if he would elaborate and give his thinking about the coming elections, Rove told NewsMax that his take largely parallels what RNC Chairman Ken Mehlman said in a Sept. 5 NewsMax story."
http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/ma.../ixnewstop.html
Days before the 2004 presidential election, an Osama Bin Laden videotape gave Bush the six point surge he needed to overtake John Kerry and snatch the White House
Cronkite: Karl Rove Set Up Bin Laden Tape
KING: OK, Walter. What do you make of this?
CRONKITE: Well, I make it out to be initially the reaction that it's a threat to us, that unless we make peace with him, in a sense, we can expect further attacks. He did not say that precisely, but it sounds like that when he says...
KING: The warning.
CRONKITE: What we just heard. So now the question is basically right now, how will this affect the election? And I have a feeling that it could tilt the election a bit. In fact, I'm a little inclined to think that Karl Rove, the political manager at the White House, who is a very clever man, he probably set up bin Laden to this thing. The advantage to the Republican side is to get rid of, as a principal subject of the campaigns right now, get rid of the whole problem of the al Qaqaa explosive dump. Right now, that, the last couple of days, has, I think, upset the Republican campaign.
KING: Now, bin Laden, of course, could help Bush in that it reminds people of a terror issue in which he runs strong. It also could hurt Bush in that reminds people he's still alive. So this could be a double edged sword, right?
CRONKITE: Indeed. Indeed. And the thing that in bringing this threat to us, there is almost, in the fact that he dressed well, that he looked well, he was clean shaven, nearly clean shaven as those folks get. It seemed almost, to me, that he wanted to enter into negotiations, that he was really up -- he wants to move into a leadership role in international affairs instead of the role of a brigand. And he spoke calmly about this thing. The threat was there, no question about it. He's delivering a warning to us, no question about that. And certainly, I don't think there's any reason to feel that we can take him to our bosom just because this speech at all. He's perfectly capable of blowing us up.
Last week, the Associated Press thrust a month old bin Laden tape back onto the front pages by reporting it as new. Like a band aid the propaganda has to be re-applied consistently to remind Americans who their enemy is supposed to be. The mob breaks a few windows downtown to make sure you pay your protection money.
As we reported yesterday, in an orchestrated set-up, George W. Bush announced that a plan to fly a plane into the LA Library Tower was thwarted in 2002 and within minutes news networks were showing footage of the same building being destroyed in the movie Independence Day.
After the mayor of LA, Antonio Villaraigosa, immediately went public with comments of his absolute bewilderment concerning the alleged plot, no fewer than twenty three intelligence experts told Capitol Hill Blue that President Bush was "cheapening and politicizing their work" by creating a "fantasy world" of discredited terror alerts and using them for political points scoring.
“I thought it was going to help,” Bush decided. “I thought it would help remind people that if bin Laden doesn’t want Bush to be the president, something must be right with Bush.”
Is Rove's October surprise the political assassination, dirty bomb, biological release or terror attack forecast in a 2005 Republican memo, touted to "reverse the sagging fortunes of President George W. Bush," and "restore his image as a leader of the American people."
here is the memo from the GOP where they salivated over the idea of the bin laden (faked) video conkrite told us about and how it will win the election from kerry....
Quote: A confidential memo circulating among senior Republican leaders suggests that a new attack by terrorists on U.S. soil could reverse the sagging fortunes of President George W. Bush as well as the GOP and "restore his image as a leader of the American people."
The closely-guarded memo lays out a list of scenarios to bring the Republican party back from the political brink, including a devastating attack by terrorists that could “validate” the President’s war on terror and allow Bush to “unite the country” in a “time of national shock and sorrow.”
The memo says such a reversal in the President's fortunes could keep the party from losing control of Congress in the 2006 midterm elections.
GOP insiders who have seen the memo admit it’s a risky strategy and point out that such scenarios are “blue sky thinking” that often occurs in political planning sessions.
“The President’s popularity was at an all-time high following the 9/11 attacks,” admits one aide. “Americans band together at a time of crisis.”
Other Republicans, however, worry that such a scenario carries high risk, pointing out that an attack might suggest the President has not done enough to protect the country.
“We also have to face the fact that many Americans no longer trust the President,” says a longtime GOP strategist. “That makes it harder for him to become a rallying point.”
The memo outlines other scenarios, including:
--Capture of Osama bin Laden (or proof that he is dead);
--A drastic turnaround in the economy;
--A "successful resolution" of the Iraq war.
GOP memos no longer talk of “victory” in Iraq but use the term “successful resolution.”
“A successful resolution would be us getting out intact and civil war not breaking out until after the midterm elections,” says one insider.
The memo circulates as Tuesday’s disastrous election defeats have left an already dysfunctional White House in chaos, West Wing insiders say, with shouting matches commonplace and the blame game escalating into open warfare.
“This place is like a high-school football locker room after the team lost the big game,” grumbles one Bush administration aide. “Everybody’s pissed and pointing the finger at blame at everybody else.”
Republican gubernatorial losses in Virginia and New Jersey deepened rifts between the Bush administration and Republicans who find the President radioactive. Arguments over whether or not the President should make a last-minute appearance in Virginia to try and help the sagging campaign fortunes of GOP candidate Jerry Kilgore raged until the minute Bush arrived at the rally in Richmond Monday night.
“Cooler heads tried to prevail,” one aide says. “Most knew an appearance by the President would hurt Kilgore rather than help him but (Karl) Rove rammed it through, convincing Bush that he had enough popularity left to make a difference.”
Bush didn’t have any popularity left. Overnight tracking polls showed Kilgore dropped three percentage points after the President’s appearance and Democrat Tim Kaine won on Tuesday.
Conservative Pennsylvania Republican Senator Rick Santorum told radio talk show host Don Imus Wednesday that he does not want the President's help and will stay away from a Bush rally in his state on Friday.
The losses in Virginia and New Jersey, coupled with a resounding defeat of ballot initiatives backed by GOP governor Arnold Schwarzenegger in California have set off alarm klaxons throughout the demoralized Republican party. Pollsters privately tell GOP leaders that unless they stop the slide they could easily lose control of the House in the 2006 midterm elections and may lose the Senate as well.
“In 30 years of sampling public opinion, I’ve never seen such a freefall in public support,” admits one GOP pollster.
Democratic pollster Geoffrey Garin says the usual tricks tried by Republicans no longer work.
"None of their old tricks worked," he says.
Rep. Thomas M. Davis III (R-Va.) admits the GOP is a party mired in its rural base in a country that's becoming less and less rural.
"You play to your rural base, you pay a price," he says. "Our issues blew up in our face."
As Republican political strategists scramble to find a message – any message – that will ring true with voters, GOP leaders in Congress admit privately that control of their party by right-wing extremists makes their recovery all but impossible.
“We’ve made our bed with these people,” admits an aide to House Speaker Denny Hastert. “Now it’s the morning after and the hangover hurts like hell.” |
more proof that the war on terror is really made up by the administration at thier leisure.
WHY MIKE, DID NO LESS THAN 23 INTELLIGENCE AGENTS CALL BULLSHIT ON BUSH -and this guys- COMMENT ON THE LIBERTY TOWER???? IT IS ALL LIES IS WHY..
YOUR VIDEO IS NOT PROOF, IT IS JUST PROPAGANDA.
WOW 2 TIMES THEY HAVE USED THE SAME PROPAGANDA!! NICE RECYCLING OF FALSE TERROR |
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