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WTC Steel Found Buried at Ground Zero
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| WTC Steel Found Buried at Ground Zero
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| BarkonCue |
NEW YORK (AP) -- Large steel columns from the fallen twin towers have been found beneath a service road being excavated at ground zero in the search for long-buried Sept. 11 remains, officials said Wednesday.
The surprising discovery of World Trade Center steel in the past week raises more questions about what was left at ground zero in the cleanup after the 2001 attacks and how the service road was created in the first place.
The steel, found during a dig for human remains that has yielded nearly 300 bones in the past three months, includes two heavy beams that were stacked horizontally in the landfill, as if moved and placed there, a person with direct knowledge of the discovery told The Associated Press. The person was not authorized to publicly discuss the findings and insisted on anonymity.
The discovery was confirmed by officials for the city and Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, which owned the trade center.
The columns were about 18 feet long and perhaps 60 tons each. Officials believe the steel columns, located a week ago just 2 to 3 feet below the surface of the road, were deliberately set there at some point during the cleanup, perhaps to stabilize heavy machinery in use at the time.
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/...r=1&oref=slogin
http://www.amny.com/news/politics/a...am-topheadlines
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Will this be treated as evidence or scrap?
I cant seen to find any photos... :rolleyes: |
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| booybob |
| Lets check for thermite on these beams. |
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| Halcyon |
Quote: Originally posted by BarkonCue
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Will this be treated as evidence or scrap?
I cant seen to find any photos... :rolleyes: |
That seems to be the problem with everything regarding 9/11, never any photos.... it's fucking amazing to me how much went on that day, and in an age where people ALWAYS have a digital camera or camera phone, how many photos seem to NOT have been taken of ANY site regarding 9/11..... the lacking amount of photos from people is staggering....
The whole day of 9/11 seems to be a fucking mystery... |
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| IWannaBangBiel |
| And that's just the way THEY want it. |
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| Halcyon |
Quote: Originally posted by IWannaBangBiel
And that's just the way THEY want it. |
I think you should change your sig to:
Fuck the cheerleader, Fuck the world! |
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| AandAmom |
| Why does this surprise anyone? |
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| DUDE-HERE |
Quote: Originally posted by BarkonCue
NEW YORK (AP) -- Large steel columns from the fallen twin towers have been found beneath a service road being excavated at ground zero in the search for long-buried Sept. 11 remains, officials said Wednesday.
The surprising discovery of World Trade Center steel in the past week raises more questions about what was left at ground zero in the cleanup after the 2001 attacks and how the service road was created in the first place.
The steel, found during a dig for human remains that has yielded nearly 300 bones in the past three months, includes two heavy beams that were stacked horizontally in the landfill, as if moved and placed there, a person with direct knowledge of the discovery told The Associated Press. The person was not authorized to publicly discuss the findings and insisted on anonymity.
The discovery was confirmed by officials for the city and Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, which owned the trade center.
The columns were about 18 feet long and perhaps 60 tons each. Officials believe the steel columns, located a week ago just 2 to 3 feet below the surface of the road, were deliberately set there at some point during the cleanup, perhaps to stabilize heavy machinery in use at the time.
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/...r=1&oref=slogin
http://www.amny.com/news/politics/a...am-topheadlines
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Will this be treated as evidence or scrap?
I cant seen to find any photos... :rolleyes: |
as if they had been placed there...all of a sudden...there it is
asshole |
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| patcracker |
| This was a crime scene that the FBI should have secured and not let any "evidence" taken away until the investigation was over. These are the things that breed mistrust with our government and fuel conspiracy theorys. |
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| DUDE-HERE |
Quote: Originally posted by patcracker
This was a crime scene that the FBI should have secured and not let any "evidence" taken away until the investigation was over. These are the things that breed mistrust with our government and fuel conspiracy theorys. |
yea it would have been better for all that dust to just float around new york city for 2 years. you people are just sick.
people who push forth the conspiracy theory that bush planned 911 with haliburton are just fucken assholes. |
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| kali |
Quote: Originally posted by AandAmom
Why does this surprise anyone? |
it doesn't surprise me at all. I don't think people have ANY idea how massive the area is, nor how massive the amount of "debris" there was from the buildings' destructions.
I've been there - before and after. It's huge area. and they really needed to get the subway/Path trains back in service.
plus, all the steel, etc they did find was sent off to Staten Is for examination. |
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| Stickman |
Another column was found on the other end of the trade center site, where the Port Authority is building a retaining wall for three planned office towers, the person said. Unlike the stacked columns, this steel appeared to be burned at one end. http://timesunion.com/AspStories/st...sdate=1/31/2007
Hmmmmm |
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| Stickman |
Quote: Originally posted by kali
plus, all the steel, etc they did find was sent off to Staten Is for examination. |
All the steel? Now, that is straight bullshit. Try about 200 pieces out of hundreds of thousands.
I wonder if they cherry picked what pieces they wanted to analyze?
Nah, probably not, the gov't is always real honest with us. |
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| Billyfromsphily |
Quote: Originally posted by Stickman
Another column was found on the other end of the trade center site, where the Port Authority is building a retaining wall for three planned office towers, the person said. Unlike the stacked columns, this steel appeared to be burned at one end. http://timesunion.com/AspStories/st...sdate=1/31/2007
Hmmmmm |
So all signs of cutting means conspiracy and not just general clean up? |
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| patcracker |
Quote: Originally posted by DUDE-HERE
yea it would have been better for all that dust to just float around new york city for 2 years. you people are just sick.
people who push forth the conspiracy theory that bush planned 911 with haliburton are just fucken assholes. |
Did you read what I wrote? Its a fucking crime scene and has to be investigated. Another 2 weeks without removal of debris would not have hurt anyone. Becuase it was not adequately investigated now you have 20 million conspiracy thoeries and growing. |
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| Stickman |
Quote: Originally posted by patcracker
Did you read what I wrote? Its a fucking crime scene and has to be investigated. Another 2 weeks without removal of debris would not have hurt anyone. Becuase it was not adequately investigated now you have 20 million conspiracy thoeries and growing. |
Why call honest investigation and questioning 'conspiracy theories?'
I guess when the left wing starts asking the right questions it will be called "activism" or some such shit. Until then if you demand answers you're a kooky conspiracy theorist. |
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| FatesWebb |
Quote: Originally posted by Halcyon
That seems to be the problem with everything regarding 9/11, never any photos.... it's fucking amazing to me how much went on that day, and in an age where people ALWAYS have a digital camera or camera phone, how many photos seem to NOT have been taken of ANY site regarding 9/11..... the lacking amount of photos from people is staggering....
The whole day of 9/11 seems to be a fucking mystery... |
thats because giuliani banned cameras at the site. |
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| Halcyon |
Quote: Originally posted by FatesWebb
thats because giuliani banned cameras at the site. |
This is a weak argument at best... and coming from you Fates?
First off, Giuliani didn't ban cameras at the Shanksville, PA crash site... no real pictures there either
Giuliani didn't ban cameras at the Pentagon.... only one grainy gas station camera there....
Giuliani claims to have banned cameras at ground zero.... who was really going to pay attention to THIS rule? Average Joe Citizen? Hell no, he's got his camera phone or digital camera out and snapping pictures...
So what you're telling me is that the minute the plane hit the first tower, giuliani immediately said 'no pictures' and everyone listened? |
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| BarkonCue |
Quote: Originally posted by FatesWebb
thats because giuliani banned cameras at the site. |
What has happened in the last 5 years?
1. An independent 9/11 investigation? Nope
2. Bush testified under oath? Nope
3. bin Laden proven to have carried out 9/11? Nope
4. 80 withheld tapes released from the Pentagon? Nope
5. 6000+ WTC pictures released from NIST? Nope |
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| FatesWebb |
Quote: Originally posted by Halcyon
This is a weak argument at best... and coming from you Fates?
First off, Giuliani didn't ban cameras at the Shanksville, PA crash site... no real pictures there either
Giuliani didn't ban cameras at the Pentagon.... only one grainy gas station camera there....
Giuliani claims to have banned cameras at ground zero.... who was really going to pay attention to THIS rule? Average Joe Citizen? Hell no, he's got his camera phone or digital camera out and snapping pictures...
So what you're telling me is that the minute the plane hit the first tower, giuliani immediately said 'no pictures' and everyone listened? |
shanksville was caroned off, so you cannt get close enough to take pictures...
there are tons of pictures of the pentagon, but most are staged and some even photoshopped... |
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| FatesWebb |
BUT NOT EVERY CAMERA WAS BANNED!!! Kurt Sonnenfeld's camera wasnt banned, but his wife thought he was going crazy, because he was obsessed with blowing the whistle on the whole ordeal... they even rampaged his computer, and his wife ended up murdered.... Get ready for another piece of the 9/11 puzzle that will blow your mind!!!!!
Kurt Sonnenfeld - FEMA's WhistleBlower?
Joe Quinn
Signs of the Times
13/09/2006
Kurt Sonnenfeld (right) at 'Ground Zero'
As a contract employee
for FEMA's Colorado regional branch, 35 year old Kurt Sonnenfeld was dispatched
to videotape and photograph the rescue and recovery effort at ground zero in
the weeks after the 9/11 attacks. There was no restriction on what Sonnenfeld
could film and no documents were signed by him that passed ownership of the
footage to FEMA. According to the TVtechnology website, Sonnenfeld was FEMA?s
Denver-based Region 8 Public
Affairs Officer and he worked the site as one of only four FEMA photographers
along with FEMA's Denver-based Region 8 Deputy Public Affairs
officer Jim Chestnutt.
Sonnenfeld's
accomplishments include:
- Produced and directed videotape and broadcast productions for KDTV-8 Denver,
TCI Cable, KDVR-Denver, Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), U.S.
Department of Energy, Army, Air Force, and the National Parks Service
- Footage
has been carried on ABC, CBS, CNN, MSNBC, NBC (including NBC Nightly News),
the Discovery Channel, BBC, and the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation
- Head
of Broadcast Operations for FEMA's National Emergency Response Advance Team;
set up and oversaw operations of FEMA's Recovery Channel
- Lead Public Affairs
Officer for FEMA on several disasters; interviewed by radio, television,
and print media
- Design and administrate FEMA Region VIII's web site
- Writer and researcher
for World Book Encyclopedia, senior analyst and managing editor for the Ross
Economic Report, editor and writer of Guestinformant Travel Guides, published
author of short fiction
- Literary manager for Chicago's Body Politic Theatre
- Researcher with the
Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Higher Education and with the
Colorado Literacy Project
At about 1.40 am
on the morning of January 1st 2002, police officers answered a possible suicide
call from the Sonnenfeld's home in LoDo Colorado. The police were forced to
break a window to enter the house because, according to Sonnenfeld, he couldn't
open the door because he didn't have the keys. "I even helped them in
by moving furniture" Sonnenfeld stated. According to police however, once they
were inside, officers were forced to wrestle
Sonnenfeld to the floor after he became combative.
Police found Sonnenfeld's wife, Nancy Sonnenfeld, on a chaise lounge in an
upstairs bedroom with a bullet wound behind her right ear. She was still alive
but unconscious and breathing heavily. She died six hours later. Dr. Amy Martin
of the Denver coroner's office found numerous bruises on
Nancy Sonnenfeld's body, which she said indicated the woman had been involved
in a struggle. There were bruises under Nancy Sonnenfeld's chin, and on
her left kneecap, right elbow, right foot and both hands. Sonnenfeld asked detectives
to perform tests that would show his wife killed herself. He asked that
Nancy's hands be tested for gunpowder residue, which he said would show
she fired the gun. He also asked that he be given a polygraph test. Tests showed
there was a very small amount of gunpowder residue on Nancy's
right hand, and none on Kurt Sonnenfeld's hands, which were covered with
blood. Also, the only fingerprint found on the gun belonged to Nancy and
was found on the gun's magazine.
Friends and family
attested to a failing marriage and Kurt
Sonnenfeld's drug habit (heroin) as the cause, and police
claimed that they knew that Nancy Sonnenfeld planned to leave her husband because
she had found him using heroin and sleeping with other women during a trip
to Thailand in November 2001. "It's hard to believe," said
Nancy's Sonnenfeld's father, Bill Campbell. "We don't hate Kurt. He was
a wonderful guy and they had a wonderful marriage for 10 years. I know he loved
our Nancy. We knew they were beginning to have problems, but we absolutely
don't know what happened that night." Nancy Sonnenfeld's mother however
said she never believed that her daughter killed herself: "I'm glad I've
had the time to get over all of this because now I can face it," Eleanor
Campbell said. "We loved Kurt. But he was not the
same Kurt we used to know. Denver
police were naturally disinclined to believe that they were dealing with a
case of suicide
and took Sonnenfeld into custody where he remained for several months awaiting
trial.
On
June 14th 2002, one day before the trial date, Deputy District Attorney Michelle
Ann Amico dismissed first-degree murder charges against Sonnenfeld apparently
on the basis of a suicide note written by Nancy Sonnenfeld which police had
not taken into evidence. Public defender Carrie Thompson stated: "Our
investigators found a letter written in Nancy's own hand consistent with a
suicide letter, although it was very cryptic," The
letter said, "What is more beautiful than love and death?" with
the word "love" scratched out. "Kurt, please get help." The
letter was found behind a framed photograph of Kurt Sonnenfeld. Nancy Sonnenfeld's
sister, Amy Leek, said the family knew this was coming but would have no comment
on the news. Nancy's Sonnenfeld's father,
Bill Campbell. stated: "It's hard to believe, we don't
hate Kurt. He was a wonderful guy and they had a wonderful marriage for 10
years. I know he loved our Nancy. We knew they were beginning to have problems,
but we absolutely don't know what happened that night."
According to Sonnenfeld, police abused him during his stay in prison. "Police
beat me and at the precinct one of them suffocated me and another forced me
to inhale something I think may have been pepper. I was kept in solitary confinement
with no water and no windows. The toilet was a hole in the middle of the floor.
It had to be flushed from outside. They flushed it often for fun, as that flooded
the room." Sonnenfeld also claimed that police hid and tampered with evidence,
ignored the suicide note and dismissed his request for a polygraph test. "Police
started lying to hide my injuries suffered during three beatings in jail. They
said my wife was shot in the back of the head or in her chest. There is clear
evidence that she shot herself behind the temple. Paraffin tests showed residue
of gunpowder in her hand and none on mine and the gun had her fingerprints
and not mine" stated Sonnenfeld. He accused one named Denver detective
of seeking to destroy his reputation and feeding the press false information,
adding that the detective had contradicted assertions that he made during an
earlier court hearing.
After his release in 2002, Sonnenfeld filed a law suit against the police
for $20 million for false arrest, false imprisonment, deprivation
of civil rights, and brutality. On arriving home from prison Sonnenfeld claims
that his computer was missing and he began to be harassed in various ways;
light bulbs at his home would be found unscrewed, locks unlocked, and he would
be followed and photographed despite taking refuge at friends' homes in other
cities and states.
During the period after his release in June 2002, Sonnenfeld claims that federal
authorities asked a co-worker (at ground zero) about the tapes he had made
of the wreckage of the WTC site and that the co-worker stated that he believed
that Sonnenfeld had handed them over to the authorities in New York. In reality,
Sonnenfeld claims that he had stored them in a make-up box in a
closet.
In February 2003, Sonnenfeld traveled to the Argentine coastal city of San
Bernardo staying in the apartment of the uncle of a friend, where he
met his current wife Paula who he married three months later in April 2003.
Since then Sonnenfeld has claimed that the harassment continued in Argentina
claiming in a October 2005 article in the Buenos Aires Herald that he
and his wife are followed and photographed To support these assertions, Sonnenfeld
provided pictures showing a man allegedly taking pictures of him in Puerto
Madero. He also provided a picture of a message sent to his cell phone that
read, ?Watch
what you are doing.? and signed ?any,? which his wife Paula
takes for ?anybody.?
After moving to Argentina, Sonnenfeld had the make-up
box containing video evidence from ground zero shipped to him along with other
possessions. At the end of July 2004, he and his wife went to the American
embassy in Buenos Aires to enquire about a visa for his wife to travel to the
US. Sonnenfeld and his wife claim that Paula was treated "cruelly" by
embassy staff. Since moving to Argentina, Sonnenfeld has worked as a TV producer
and participated as an actor in a Burger King TV advertisement that was aired
in the US. Sonnenfeld claims that he offered Twin Towers footage to several
local Argentine TV programs for the third anniversary of the attack, but
nothing that he had not shown to other media before.
In September 2004, US prosecutors filed new charges against Sonnenfeld over
his first wife's death stating that new information had come to light based
mainly on the testimony of two men who had shared the same cell as Sonnenfeld
in 2002. According to reports, one month after Sonnenfeld was released, former
cell-mate Robert Dryer said that Sonnenfeld had told him how he shot his wife
behind the ear and put her finger on the gun?s trigger as he pulled it
himself. Another former inmate, Damian Whitehead, said he and Sonnenfeld met
after they were released from jail. According to him, Sonnenfeld said he killed
his wife and that he couldn?t bear to have her leave him. Sonnenfeld
told the Buenos Aires Herald: "In August 2004, I delivered some demo
to a TV producer. A week later, on August 31, Interpol arrested me. I find
that extremely coincidental. A month before, I had gone to the embassy.
Sonnenfeld
spent seven months in Villa Devoto prison in Buenos Aires pending a US extradition
request after the refiling of charges of first-degree murder by the US government
that he dismisses as groundless. He shows a copy of a US Embassy extradition
request dated August 13, 2004, that reads, ?The ensuing investigation
has established that Mr Sonnenfeld killed her.? But Sonnenfeld argues, ?That
is prejudging and reviving the same lies that had been already dismissed.
The Argentine judge dealing with the extradition request, Daniel Rafecas,
finally rejected it on the grounds that Sonnenfeld has sought asylum in Argentina
and that the US government has not provided
sufficient guarantees that Sonnenfeld will not face the death penalty if extradited.
In response, the US government appealed the ruling and the decision now rests
in the hands of the Argentine Supreme Court. Sonnenfeld has appealed to various
humanitarian organisations including the Human Rights Commission of the Argentine
parliament where, on Tuesday 12th September 2006, discussions began on whether
or not to provide Sonnenfeld with political asylum. Part of the discussions
will include proposals to deal with limiting the scope of the actions on Argentine
soil of agents of the intelligence agencies of other nations, a point which
was raised as a result of Sonnenfeld's testimony about his harassment since
arriving in Argentina.
In an interview with Argentine daily newspaper el Pais on September 10th 2006,
Sonnenfeld, now 41, stated that the fact that he continued to be harassed
even after he moved to Argentina led him to begin to understand
that the core of the problem was the tapes he had made at ground zero: "At
that point I realised that they were after something else: the tapes of ground
zero in my possession."
Quote:
"In faltering Spanish and with the help of his wife Paula, Kurt answers
each question with abundant documentation. He produces papers, signed by
the Deputy District Attorney, which show that he was finally cleared as the
author of his first wife's murder. He offers copies of American newspaper
articles in which the Denver police are denounced for having dismissed evidence
that his wife committed "suicide", and the police photos of his bruised face,
evidence, he says, of police brutality. Sonnenfeld also makes reference to
the testimony of the two prisoners who, in exchange for a reduction in their
sentences, swore to the same police that I accused of torture, that I had
confessed to the murder of my wife" The testimonies reopened the case and
dismissed my suit against the Denver police. Sonnenfeld displays documents
to show that he never attempted to hide his identity and even presented himself
to the US embassy in an effort to return to the US with his new wife, an
act which, two weeks later, led to his arrest and the serving of an extradition
warrant.
- What exactly was he able to document at the WTC site?
I was the only person, with camera in hand, with total and absolute access
to any area of Ground Zero and the WTC. Any other cameras that were within
that area would have been confiscated and the the person carrying them arrested.
- But what exactly are in these images of yours that could contradict the
official US government version of events on 9/11?
What I saw at certain moments and in certain places...is very frightening,
I don't know who to put it in words, what I saw leads me to the terrible conclusion
that there was foreknowledge of what was going to happen. The precautions that
were taken to save certain things that the authorities there considered irreplaceable
or invaluable. For example, certain things were missing that could only
have been removed with a truck, yet after the first plane hit one of the towers,
everything in manhattan collapsed and no one could have gotten near the towers
to do that.
- What things were removed?
Several offices of the US intelligence agencies were located in the WTC,
including the second most important CIA building in the country. From some
of these locations certain documentation that was irreplaceable was removed.
I don't want to give too many details because our future, our lives, depend
on this. The information of which I speak is already distributed in several
places."
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On February 23rd 2006, Sonnenfeld displayed a selection of his photographs
from Ground Zero at the La Boh?me Sal?n gallery in Buenos
Aires. The Buenos Aires Herald reported:
Quote:
A fireman works amid the debris of Ground Zero just hours after the September
11, 2001, terrorist attack that razed the Twin Towers in New York, as pictured
by US citizen Kurt Sonnenfeld, who claims to be the only videographer given
full access by the US government to record rescue works. An exhibit of 28
Ground Zero pictures taken by Sonnenfeld and never shown before opened yesterday
for about a month. The United States has requested that Argentina extradite
Sonnenfeld on charges that in 2002 he killed his first wife and the case
is in the hands of Argentina?s Supreme Court of Justice. Sonnenfeld,
43, claims that she took her own life. He was detained for several months
in Denver, Colorado, and one day before a trial was due to start a judge
dismissed the charges and he was released in June 2002.
He publicly accused
US police of torturing and persecuting him. In February 2003, he came for
a month?s
holiday in Argentina, where he married an Argentine citizen Paula. The pictures
he is now exhibiting came to Buenos Aires in a make-up box, hidden in his
furniture. Asked by the Herald in an interview last October whether he thought
that the alleged persecution was linked to his work as a videographer, he
simply said, ?The
US authorities are trying to extradite me under false pretenses.?
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Case closed? What seems obvious is the fact that, if Sonnenfeld really does
have evidence to prove a government conspiracy on 9/11, he knew about it within
a few weeks of the attacks themselves. It is also reasonable to suggest that
he is (or was on 9/11) an employee of one of the intelligence
agencies involved in the perpetration of the attacks since it is unlikely that
the one of the only photographers allowed into Ground Zero to document the
evidence would have been just an average Joe. The questions that remain then
concern the reality of all that has happened since. That
Sonnenfeld was in his house on the morning of January 1st 2002 when his first
wife died from a gunshot wound seems beyond dispute. That within a year
of his somewhat miraculous release from prison in 2002 he moved to Argentina,
quickly remarried, and is now the subject of an extradition warrant by the
US government is also clear, along with the fact that the Argentine government
seems reluctant to hand him over.
If we are to believe his claims,
we can assume that Sonnenfeld has not yet released all of the evidence in his
possession of a government conspiracy on 9/11 and is perhaps waiting on the
most opportune moment to do so. If he is guilty of murdering
his wife (which seems likely) and is using the 'evidence of conspiracy' that
he possesses
to ensure his continuing liberty, then his 'evidence' may never be released.
If, however, he is innocent of the murder and is being harassed with a trumped
up charge precisely because he has evidence of a 9/11 government conspiracy,
then it would seem sensible for him to release the details at some point
in the near future. Whatever the case, the saga of Kurt Sonnenfeld appears
to be but one more detail in the sordid tale that has been the US government's
continuing attempts to distort and cover up the massive and growing evidence
that the 9/11 attacks were undeniably the work of elements of the US government
itself.
Notes:
www.tvtechnology.com/...
cbs4denver.com/...
ar.news.yahoo.com/...
www.rockymountainnews.com/...
www.rockypreps.com/...
www.thedailycamera.com/...
www.infobae.com/...
www.buenosairesherald.com/...
www.buenosairesherald.com/...
www.buenosairesherald.com/...
www.pagina12.com.ar/... |
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| Frankly |
Quick!...................get FatesWeb on this case!
Maybe Martians dropped this load of steel! |
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| Stickman |
And then there's this brave kid:
One of our most prominent, courageous and dedicated young members of NY911Truth and CHANGE, Dan Wallace is no longer with us.
Dan's father Robert Wallace gave his life on 9/11/01, leaving Dan with many unanswered questions about 9/11.
Dan was an ardent activist who showed no fear when confronted by police at street actions at WTC Building 7 and at the New York Stock Exchange. Dan was an eloquent speaker, both on videos of the street actions and at St. Mark's Church, where he gave a moving oration before a packed crowd in a recent Sunday night presentation.
Dan Wallace, 23, was found dead early Monday morning in his bed. The exact cause of death is yet to be determined.
http://loosechange911.blogspot.com/ |
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| Stickman |
| Dan is the guy on the left. |
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| Halcyon |
So it's your guys's estimation that the government killed Dan Wallace and Keith Sonnenfield's wife?
I mean, what are we really getting at? |
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| Stickman |
Quote: Originally posted by Halcyon
So it's your guys's estimation that the government killed Dan Wallace and Keith Sonnenfield's wife?
I mean, what are we really getting at? |
I'm not stupid enough to accuse anyone of murder, especially on SFN.
Still, it is not beyond the realm of governments to protect their interests through the "disappearing" of agitators.
There have been "two shot" and "shotgun" suicides that are highly suspicious. |
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| Halcyon |
Quote: Originally posted by Stickman
I'm not stupid enough to accuse anyone of murder, especially on SFN.
Still, it is not beyond the realm of governments to protect their interests through the "disappearing" of agitators.
There have been "two shot" and "shotgun" suicides that are highly suspicious. |
While I may agree with your last sentence here.... what I'm trying to ask is.... is it your "estimation" that Dan Wallace and Keith Sonnenfield's wife were both a 'threat' to exposing Government plots to engineer 9/11?
I mean... it looks like a kid with a sweater on and the wife of a guy who had a camera...... I mean honestly.... are they really candidates for the government's most wanted list for exposing conspiracies? |
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| Stickman |
Quote: Originally posted by Halcyon
While I may agree with your last sentence here.... what I'm trying to ask is.... is it your "estimation" that Dan Wallace and Keith Sonnenfield's wife were both a 'threat' to exposing Government plots to engineer 9/11?
I mean... it looks like a kid with a sweater on and the wife of a guy who had a camera...... I mean honestly.... are they really candidates for the government's most wanted list for exposing conspiracies? |
Dan Wallace was a lot more than a kid with a sweatshirt on. Read the whole story. |
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| DUDE-HERE |
Quote: Originally posted by patcracker
Did you read what I wrote? Its a fucking crime scene and has to be investigated. Another 2 weeks without removal of debris would not have hurt anyone. Becuase it was not adequately investigated now you have 20 million conspiracy thoeries and growing. |
how was it not..oh i see
keep investigating so we can figure out a way to tie it to the government and if we can't we'lll still say we didn't have enough time to investigate |
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| DUDE-HERE |
Quote: Originally posted by Stickman
And then there's this brave kid:
One of our most prominent, courageous and dedicated young members of NY911Truth and CHANGE, Dan Wallace is no longer with us.
Dan's father Robert Wallace gave his life on 9/11/01, leaving Dan with many unanswered questions about 9/11.
Dan was an ardent activist who showed no fear when confronted by police at street actions at WTC Building 7 and at the New York Stock Exchange. Dan was an eloquent speaker, both on videos of the street actions and at St. Mark's Church, where he gave a moving oration before a packed crowd in a recent Sunday night presentation.
Dan Wallace, 23, was found dead early Monday morning in his bed. The exact cause of death is yet to be determined.
http://loosechange911.blogspot.com/ |
yea he look like a real genius, check his blood for cocaine use. alot of people seem to be having heart attacks from it.. i knew 2 people who died from a coke overdose. |
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| Halcyon |
Quote: Originally posted by Stickman
Dan Wallace was a lot more than a kid with a sweatshirt on. Read the whole story. |
I just want you to say one thing for me, so that I can see this on a electronic forum
I want you to say:
It is my belief that Dan Wallace and Keith Sonnenberg's wife were such a threat to the government that their deaths are suspicious for that reason.
You offer up these two names as suspicious deaths and then don't commit to the idea that their deaths are somehow tied to the government....
I'm not asking you to say you think the government had them killed...
But you're asking me to draw that correlation.
So please, don't insult my intelligence.
And I will read the story of Dan Wallace.... |
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| Stickman |
Quote: Originally posted by Halcyon
And I will read the story of Dan Wallace.... |
That might be the thing to do if you want to discuss it. |
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| Halcyon |
Quote: Originally posted by Stickman
That might be the thing to do if you want to discuss it. |
I've decided I don't care to discuss it... you've made it clear what how you feel about it, and I don't think there's anything we need to discuss.... I've made my point |
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| Stickman |
If you're question is: do I think that people connected with revealing deep gov't secrets turn up dead in suspicious circumstances, my answer is yes.
If you're asking me if I think Wallace was murdered, the answer is I don't know, but his death is still undetermined. |
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| Halcyon |
Quote: Originally posted by Stickman
If you're question is: do I think that people connected with revealing deep gov't secrets turn up dead in suspicious circumstances, my answer is yes.
If you're asking me if I think Wallace was murdered, the answer is I don't know, but his death is still undetermined. |
You're presenting the facts in a suspicious manner, and then asking me to draw the correlation.... that's all I'm saying. And I'm saying, you should just come out and say what you want me to believe rather than try and get me to come to the conclusion you want me to.
But I'll agree that the deaths are suspicious
But I'm not sure if everyone who has beef with the government and ends up dead under suspicious circumstances means the government had a hand in any of it.
Again, like I said, I find it hard to believe that these two were high up on a 'list' of 'threats' to the government... |
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| DUDE-HERE |
Quote: Originally posted by Stickman
If you're question is: do I think that people connected with revealing deep gov't secrets turn up dead in suspicious circumstances, my answer is yes.
If you're asking me if I think Wallace was murdered, the answer is I don't know, but his death is still undetermined. |
yea he was such a threat to the establishment
ahahhahahahahaha
again check his blood for a coke overdose |
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| Stickman |
Quote: Originally posted by Halcyon
You're presenting the facts in a suspicious manner, and then asking me to draw the correlation.... that's all I'm saying. And I'm saying, you should just come out and say what you want me to believe rather than try and get me to come to the conclusion you want me to.
But I'll agree that the deaths are suspicious
But I'm not sure if everyone who has beef with the government and ends up dead under suspicious circumstances means the government had a hand in any of it.
Again, like I said, I find it hard to believe that these two were high up on a 'list' of 'threats' to the government... |
They don't need to be far up, just enough to send a message. |
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| Billyfromsphily |
Quote: Originally posted by Stickman
They don't need to be far up, just enough to send a message. |
Maybe the message is be careful before they come for you! |
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| Stickman |
Quote: Originally posted by Billyfromsphily
Maybe the message is be careful before they come for you! |
Maybe you can go fuck yourself you fucking cocksucker. |
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| Billyfromsphily |
Quote: Originally posted by Stickman
Maybe you can go fuck yourself you fucking cocksucker. |
Thats just as deep as the secrets he must have found! |
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| Stickman |
Ya know, it's easy to think that people like DUDE or IP are just mindless idiots, but you're stupid and disrespectful. The guy's father was a firefighter killed on 9/11. He took it upon himself to investigate 9/11, gave speeches and presentations all over the country and he mysteriously winds up dead in his bed at the age of 23.
You're making a joke out of it probably because you realize you'll never have the intelligence or even the nuts that Dan had.
And again, so that we're clear on this, you're a fucking snivelling faggot douchebag idiot illiterate. Is that clear enough for you? |
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| Max-the-Silent |
Quote: Originally posted by patcracker
Did you read what I wrote? Its a fucking crime scene and has to be investigated. Another 2 weeks without removal of debris would not have hurt anyone. Becuase it was not adequately investigated now you have 20 million conspiracy thoeries and growing. |
In a situation like the WTC, there was no way to "treat it like a crime scene" and conduct rescue/recovery work simultaneously.
The first thing the authorities were concerned with was rescuing individuals possibly trapped in the rubble - that action alone contaminated the scene to the point that a text-book forensic investigation was impossible.
The fact that the attacks were seen and recorded and broadcast pretty much took away any mystery (except to the TFH brigade) as to what happened, and that contributed to the mindset that treated the debris as just another waste removal job rather than the world's largest forensic job. |
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| Billyfromsphily |
Why such anger? You haven't proved anything you just keep posting sayings and opinions and claim it is proof.
Now you attack your questioners and claim nobility.
You are spontaneously selfcombusting and your anger is generated by your inability to prove anything.
Now keep up the good research and mysbe you will find something resembling proof and not OPINION! |
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| Stickman |
Quote: Originally posted by Max-the-Silent
The fact that the attacks were seen and recorded and broadcast pretty much took away any mystery |
Another priceless gem. Yeah, like video and TV broadcasts were going to solve the mystery of why three buildings collapsed. Good one Max.
Oh yeah where's the pic of the 25% scoop taken out of WTC 7? I didn't see any video or TV broadcasts of that? |
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| Stickman |
Quote: Originally posted by Billyfromsphily
Why such anger? You haven't proved anything you just keep posting sayings and opinions and claim it is proof.
Now you attack your questioners and claim nobility.
You are spontaneously selfcombusting and your anger is generated by your inability to prove anything.
Now keep up the good research and mysbe you will find something resembling proof and not OPINION! |
I don't think you've stated a single sourced fact on this site.
Seriously, you sound about 12 with your goofy shit. |
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| Billyfromsphily |
Quote: Originally posted by Stickman
Another priceless gem. Yeah, like video and TV broadcasts were going to solve the mystery of why three buildings collapsed. Good one Max.
Oh yeah where's the pic of the 25% scoop taken out of WTC 7? I didn't see any video or TV broadcasts of that? |
You are blind anyway so how could you see anything?
Bring in David Blaine or Penn and Teller to explain it to yourself. They are the only ones who could explain it to you . |
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| Billyfromsphily |
Quote: Originally posted by Stickman
I don't think you've stated a single sourced fact on this site.
Seriously, you sound about 12 with your goofy shit. |
I am only responding to the juvenile stories you post as facts. You didn't understand fly by wire until I explained it to you. Now go back to your conspiracy sites and find some more nonsense for us to poke fun at! |
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| Max-the-Silent |
Quote: Originally posted by Stickman
Another priceless gem. Yeah, like video and TV broadcasts were going to solve the mystery of why three buildings collapsed. Good one Max.
Oh yeah where's the pic of the 25% scoop taken out of WTC 7? I didn't see any video or TV broadcasts of that? |
You edited my quote:
The fact that the attacks were seen and recorded and broadcast pretty much took away any mystery (except to the TFH brigade) as to what happened
The active posters in this forum know where you stand, why run away from it? |
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| Stickman |
Enlighten me Max, 1) how was my paraphrase much different from what you said or 2) what the fuck are you talking about?
Are you saying there was no need to investigate because the attacks were widely broadcast? |
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| Billyfromsphily |
Quote: Originally posted by Stickman
Enlighten me Max, 1) how was my paraphrase much different from what you said or 2) what the fuck are you talking about?
Are you saying there was no need to investigate because the attacks were widely broadcast? |
NO he's saying you changed what he said ! This is why you have no respect on this site!
The second part is your words, not His !
Warping the story does not prove it! |
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| Stickman |
Something tells me that both Frog and Max regret that you are their most vocal supporter.
I'd hate for you to stop posting on the debate thread because it really doesn't make Frog's position look too good.
Tell us again how the WTC couldn't have been demo'd because the unions wouldn't allow it. That was a compelling argument. |
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| Max-the-Silent |
Quote: Originally posted by Stickman
Something tells me that both Frog and Max regret that you are their most vocal supporter.
I'd hate for you to stop posting on the debate thread because it really doesn't make Frog's position look too good.
Tell us again how the WTC couldn't have been demo'd because the unions wouldn't allow it. That was a compelling argument. |
IIRC, the case was made that the WTC was a union work site, and alterations/repairs etc. were required to be done by Union firms.
I don't remeber any statement asserting that the Unions wouldn't "allow" a CD, I remember the assertion that Union members would have been aware of any monkey business, and would be in a position to be witness to same.
Sounds reasonable to me. |
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| Stickman |
Quote: Originally posted by Max-the-Silent
IIRC, the case was made that the WTC was a union work site, and alterations/repairs etc. were required to be done by Union firms.
I don't remeber any statement asserting that the Unions wouldn't "allow" a CD, I remember the assertion that Union members would have been aware of any monkey business, and would be in a position to be witness to same.
Sounds reasonable to me. |
It sounds reasonable to you because you're a fucking tool, really. A statement saying what? Union bosses are never paid off, no never.
And if the Secret Service, IRS, CIA, etc (residents of WTC 7) wanted a demo I bet they'd have a real hard time getting around the unions. Ha hahaha. |
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| Billyfromsphily |
Keep up the stupid discourse because it shows your stunning lack of credibility in your thesis.
All you have done is use the "BECAUSE I SAY ITS SO" defense.
Its just a real as your whole premise!
The debate thread is a joke with your stuttering accusations! |
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| Stickman |
Quote: Originally posted by Billyfromsphily
Keep up the stupid discourse because it shows your stunning lack of credibility in your thesis.
All you have done is use the "BECAUSE I SAY ITS SO" defense.
Its just a real as your whole premise!
The debate thread is a joke with your stuttering accusations! |
Thanks for being so clear. |
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| Billyfromsphily |
Quote: Originally posted by Stickman
Thanks for being so clear. |
Your welcome! |
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| Max-the-Silent |
Quote: Originally posted by Stickman
Enlighten me Max, 1) how was my paraphrase much different from what you said or 2) what the fuck are you talking about?
Are you saying there was no need to investigate because the attacks were widely broadcast? |
Reading is fundemental:
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
(post #41)
Quote: Originally posted by patcracker
Did you read what I wrote? Its a fucking crime scene and has to be investigated. Another 2 weeks without removal of debris would not have hurt anyone. Becuase it was not adequately investigated now you have 20 million conspiracy thoeries and growing.
In a situation like the WTC, there was no way to "treat it like a crime scene" and conduct rescue/recovery work simultaneously.
The first thing the authorities were concerned with was rescuing individuals possibly trapped in the rubble - that action alone contaminated the scene to the point that a text-book forensic investigation was impossible.
The fact that the attacks were seen and recorded and broadcast pretty much took away any mystery (except to the TFH brigade) as to what happened, and that contributed to the mindset that treated the debris as just another waste removal job rather than the world's largest forensic job.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
I was answering Pat.
Not every post is about you. |
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| Stickman |
Quote: Originally posted by Max-the-Silent
[B][/Reading is fundemental:
B] |
Yeah, like post #47 and #48. Just like a douchebag again Max. And you never did answer the question. See in you in three months, fraud. |
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| Stickman |
Hey Max, NIST appartently agrees with you. After seeing the massive video and photographic evidence of what collapsed the towers, no need to study the steel in WTC 7. Yeah, it wouldn't teach us anything anyway. Scrap it so that the Japanese can build indoor ski slopes.
Lack of WTC 7 steel precludes tests on the actual material from the structure
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NCSTAR1-3ExecutiveSummary.pdf
page 2 E.1
"the steel used in the construction of WTC 7 is described
based solely on data from the literature, because no steel from the building was recovered."
page 9 E.6 |
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| Billyfromsphily |
| So what? keep up the great investigation. You have proved zero ! |
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| Stickman |
Quote: Originally posted by Billyfromsphily
So what? |
This is all anyone needs to know about this idiot. |
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| Billyfromsphily |
Again with the misquotes.
You haven't proved anything again. |
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| Stickman |
How did I misquote two words?
You said "So what?"
I quoted you as saying "So what?"
Disclaimer: I apologize to SFN for the absolute inanity of this exchange. Even I'm appalled at my participation. |
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| Billyfromsphily |
| Apology accepted ! Now you can stop all this conspiracy nonsense. |
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| FatesWebb |
Quote: Originally posted by Max-the-Silent
In a situation like the WTC, there was no way to "treat it like a crime scene" and conduct rescue/recovery work simultaneously.
The first thing the authorities were concerned with was rescuing individuals possibly trapped in the rubble - that action alone contaminated the scene to the point that a text-book forensic investigation was impossible.
The fact that the attacks were seen and recorded and broadcast pretty much took away any mystery (except to the TFH brigade) as to what happened, and that contributed to the mindset that treated the debris as just another waste removal job rather than the world's largest forensic job. |
how many were rescued from the rubble? |
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| Halcyon |
| Billy.... I think you should just start a call-out thread for Stickman a la the old General Chat rules..... it's clear you both have a deep-seeded hatred for one another..... |
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| Billyfromsphily |
I don't hate him. Its just that he is a hypocrite in pushing his conspiracy. Every time he posts some nonsense I will challenge it. He in turn will call me profane names. Seems like he has the problem.
The burden of proof is on the accuser and he does not prove things but attacks you for questioning him. |
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| Halcyon |
Quote: Originally posted by Billyfromsphily
I don't hate him. Its just that he is a hypocrite in pushing his conspiracy. Every time he posts some nonsense I will challenge it. He in turn will call me profane names. Seems like he has the problem.
The burden of proof is on the accuser and he does not prove things but attacks you for questioning him. |
In all honesty.... and this is not a knock on you.... but it seems to me, that while he's busy talking to someone else on here... you start screaming profane names at him and talking about how his 'proof' is not proof at all....
But then you don't offer anything to 'debunk' his 'proof'.... you just attack him as being a conspiracy theorist and call him bad names....
Then he calls you bad names...... then you scream at him for not providing proof and calling you bad names....
Just as an objective viewer.... it seems like YOU have the problem with him.... he doesn't seem to address you most of the time, because you just attack him as a person rather than attack his 'logic' and 'proof'..... maybe that's why he's tired of dealing with you.
Again... I'm not trying to be a dick, just stating what it looks like to me... I honestly don't want to get between you two, I just thought I'd give ya some advice.
I mean... if you're going to attack him personally, don't be mad when he attacks you back, is all I'm saying. If you're going to attack his 'proof' and he attacks you personally, you might have a point... |
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| Max-the-Silent |
Quote: Originally posted by FatesWebb
how many were rescued from the rubble? |
That's not the point Fates, there is a responsibility in any disaster to search for and rescue surviviors.
That is farther up the priority list than maintaining the integrity of the crime scene.
And as I posted before, there wasn't a debate as to the cause of the collapses. |
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| Billyfromsphily |
Quote: Originally posted by Halcyon
In all honesty.... and this is not a knock on you.... but it seems to me, that while he's busy talking to someone else on here... you start screaming profane names at him and talking about how his 'proof' is not proof at all....
But then you don't offer anything to 'debunk' his 'proof'.... you just attack him as being a conspiracy theorist and call him bad names....
Then he calls you bad names...... then you scream at him for not providing proof and calling you bad names....
Just as an objective viewer.... it seems like YOU have the problem with him.... he doesn't seem to address you most of the time, because you just attack him as a person rather than attack his 'logic' and 'proof'..... maybe that's why he's tired of dealing with you.
Again... I'm not trying to be a dick, just stating what it looks like to me... I honestly don't want to get between you two, I just thought I'd give ya some advice.
I mean... if you're going to attack him personally, don't be mad when he attacks you back, is all I'm saying. If you're going to attack his 'proof' and he attacks you personally, you might have a point... |
I understand what you are getting at. He doesn't answer the questions. If you think his proposals constitute proof positive fine. But until he wraps any of these in more than half truths and unconnected statements with solid evidence and stops the profanity , I will keep poking at it. |
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| Stickman |
Quote: Originally posted by Halcyon
In all honesty.... and this is not a knock on you.... but it seems to me, that while he's busy talking to someone else on here... you start screaming profane names at him and talking about how his 'proof' is not proof at all....
But then you don't offer anything to 'debunk' his 'proof'.... you just attack him as being a conspiracy theorist and call him bad names....
Then he calls you bad names...... then you scream at him for not providing proof and calling you bad names....
Just as an objective viewer.... it seems like YOU have the problem with him.... he doesn't seem to address you most of the time, because you just attack him as a person rather than attack his 'logic' and 'proof'..... maybe that's why he's tired of dealing with you.
Again... I'm not trying to be a dick, just stating what it looks like to me... I honestly don't want to get between you two, I just thought I'd give ya some advice.
I mean... if you're going to attack him personally, don't be mad when he attacks you back, is all I'm saying. If you're going to attack his 'proof' and he attacks you personally, you might have a point... |
All I can say is that I offered him a peace treaty and he rejected it. In fact I offer everyone on SFN an unconditional peace treaty. If you don't insult my perspective, I won't insult yours. If you don't call me names, I won't call you names. We should be able to address and analyze each other's arguments and where we believe they are incorrect but still maintain some level of respect.
However, those who choose to insult me or call me names will get it back in spades. There is a perverse pleasure in destroying the poorly constructed arguments of idiots. It's one of the things I love about SFN. |
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| Halcyon |
Quote: Originally posted by Billyfromsphily
I understand what you are getting at. He doesn't answer the questions. If you think his proposals constitute proof positive fine. But until he wraps any of these in more than half truths and unconnected statements with solid evidence and stops the profanity , I will keep poking at it. |
Quote: Originally posted by Billyfromsphily
I don't hate him. Its just that he is a hypocrite in pushing his conspiracy. Every time he posts some nonsense I will challenge it. He in turn will call me profane names. Seems like he has the problem.
The burden of proof is on the accuser and he does not prove things but attacks you for questioning him. |
I'm not saying you need to change who you are, I'm merely pointing out that you were just complaining about him attacking you personally and not providing proof, but you have been doing the same exact things this whole time. That's all I'm pointing out.
I don't agree that Stickman has all the answers, and I don't take everything he says as proof.... but he's offering explanations of what could have happened, and you're just blasting his character without debunking any of his explanations. Or offering any possible explanations yourself |
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| Halcyon |
Quote: Originally posted by Stickman
All I can say is that I offered him a peace treaty and he rejected it. In fact I offer everyone on SFN an unconditional peace treaty. If you don't insult my perspective, I won't insult yours. If you don't call me names, I won't call you names. We should be able to address and analyze each other's arguments and where we believe they are incorrect but still maintain some level of respect.
However, those who choose to insult me or call me names will get it back in spades. There is a perverse pleasure in destroying the poorly constructed arguments of idiots. It's one of the things I love about SFN. |
I still love a good e-fight however, and calling people names is fun, especially in this forum.
The difference is where you take it after all that... |
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| Billyfromsphily |
And again, so that we're clear on this, you're a fucking snivelling faggot douchebag idiot illiterate. Is that clear enough for you? [/B][/QUOTE]
I guess this is civil debate ? More like overreaction it would seem. |
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| Stickman |
| I own up to every insult. That's why I offered a peace treaty, to stop the e-fighting. You rejected it and so now I have to return to base insults. Is that clear enough, you ignorant asscheese? |
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| Billyfromsphily |
So name calling is more important than working on your conspiracy.
Well fire away you can call me all the names you want! It just solidifies your case! |
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