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Democrats' Plan for Victory in Iraq
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| Democrats' Plan for Victory in Iraq
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| SDVT-2 |
Now it can be told. The Democrats do have a plan for victory in Iraq. It is as simple as it is brilliant -- confuse, confound and surprise the enemy.
[Voting for the joint resolution to give Bush authority to use force against Saddam Hussein was] the hardest decision I've ever had to make, but I cast it with conviction. I want this president, or any future president, to be in the strongest possible position to lead our country, at the United Nations or at war. -- Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, D-N.Y., Oct. 10, 2002
What I have said is that I do think we need more troops. -- Sen. Clinton, Dec. 7, 2003
[Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld] did not go into Iraq with enough troops to establish law and order. -- Sen. Clinton, Aug. 3, 2006
Rather than escalation of U.S. troops -- which I do not believe will contribute to long-term success in Iraq -- we should begin a phased redeployment of U.S. troops as a way to put pressure on the Iraqi government to take responsibility for its own security and future. -- Sen. Clinton, Jan. 17, 2007
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/...victory_in_iraq |
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| angrychink |
'we're winnin' '
~ dumbya |
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| angrychink |
"major combat operations are over, and we have prevailed'
~ dumbya |
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| oat |
| The Democrats are going to yell at people in South Carolina because they have a rebel flag at the capitol... In other words, they will do nothing...... Nothing that matters..... |
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| angrychink |
but, the repukes have been crowing for months that the dems had no plan
which way is it, retard?
isn't dumbya hysterical, when he asks for those who question his policy, to come up with a plan?
meanwhile the plan is...to get out
and dumbya can't understand that?
really, how FUCKING DUMB is dumbya? |
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| Halcyon |
Quote: Originally posted by SDVT-2
Now it can be told. The Democrats do have a plan for victory in Iraq. It is as simple as it is brilliant -- confuse, confound and surprise the enemy.
[Voting for the joint resolution to give Bush authority to use force against Saddam Hussein was] the hardest decision I've ever had to make, but I cast it with conviction. I want this president, or any future president, to be in the strongest possible position to lead our country, at the United Nations or at war. -- Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, D-N.Y., Oct. 10, 2002
What I have said is that I do think we need more troops. -- Sen. Clinton, Dec. 7, 2003
[Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld] did not go into Iraq with enough troops to establish law and order. -- Sen. Clinton, Aug. 3, 2006
Rather than escalation of U.S. troops -- which I do not believe will contribute to long-term success in Iraq -- we should begin a phased redeployment of U.S. troops as a way to put pressure on the Iraqi government to take responsibility for its own security and future. -- Sen. Clinton, Jan. 17, 2007
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/...victory_in_iraq |
What exactly is confusing about this?
She said we need more troops in 2003, which is when we probably could have made a difference...
Now she says we don't need troops in 2007.... which is probably NOT going to make a difference at this point anyway.
Gee... you've pointed out again how stupid you are...
Do you ever get tired of doing that? |
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| angrychink |
yes
again providing yet more proof that dumbya has no fucking idea what to do in iraq
he SHOULD have added more troops in 03
he SHOULD be pulling out now, because there is no solution to the clusterfuck he alone created |
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| patcracker |
| This is Bush's war. He being the Commander in Chief makes all the decisions and shares whatever success's and failures that result from it. Bush had 3 years with a republican majority Congress to make this a success. Now that he has lost Congress, this Congress is not going to rubber stamp any of his future flawed decisions. Until Bush is gone from office this will be Bush's war. Get used to it. |
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| angrychink |
what's interesting is how the repukes agenda now
is to try to include the dems in the blame game for this war
really, is that all they've got? |
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| Halcyon |
Quote: Originally posted by patcracker
This is Bush's war. He being the Commander in Chief makes all the decisions and shares whatever success's and failures that result from it. Bush had 3 years with a republican majority Congress to make this a success. Now that he has lost Congress, this Congress is not going to rubber stamp any of his future flawed decisions. Until Bush is gone from office this will be Bush's war. Get used to it. |
No Pat... the GOP spin machine is to now blame Democrats for this war. Simply because they have control of Congress at the moment.
Never mind that Bush fucked this war up for over 5 years with complete control of Congress, never mind that Bush ignored intelligence, never mind that 3000 soldiers died under his complete control with nothing to show for it for 5 straight years.
"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...."
SDVT-2 (Dorothy) here would like you to forget about Bush and concentrate on Democrats...
Just like a good Bush bot..... spin spin spin, spin the lies long enough, and maybe the sheep will forget.... spin spin spin..... spin spin spin ..... |
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| angrychink |
Quote: Originally posted by Halcyon
No Pat... the GOP spin machine is to now blame Democrats for this war. Simply because they have control of Congress at the moment.
Never mind that Bush fucked this war up for over 5 years with complete control of Congress, never mind that Bush ignored intelligence, never mind that 3000 soldiers died under his complete control with nothing to show for it for 5 straight years.
"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...."
SDVT-2 (Dorothy) here would like you to forget about Bush and concentrate on Democrats...
Just like a good Bush bot..... spin spin spin, spin the lies long enough, and maybe the sheep will forget.... spin spin spin..... spin spin spin ..... |
hal
the gop spin machine is now trying to blame dems for this war
while totally ignoring the fact that for the last 6 years (before november, 2006) the repukes controlled congress
just some minor facts that seem to slap the fuck out of the repukes that they have to ignore |
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| patcracker |
30% of the country will buy into this idea that the war is the democrats fault becuase either they are
A. Stupid and dont question anything
or
B. Beleive anything that comes from the right side of the aisle becuase of thier blind hatred of everything that is even remotely liberal.
Last November should have been a wake up call to this 30% becuase the majority of the country is moderate. The empty rhetoric that worked up until 2006 is still being employed but at less successful rate. The majority of the nation is realizing that they have been misled or just plain lied to and they are growing tired of it. |
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| gazill |
Quote: Originally posted by Halcyon
No Pat... the GOP spin machine is to now blame Democrats for this war. Simply because they have control of Congress at the moment.
Never mind that Bush fucked this war up for over 5 years with complete control of Congress, never mind that Bush ignored intelligence, never mind that 3000 soldiers died under his complete control with nothing to show for it for 5 straight years.
"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...."
SDVT-2 (Dorothy) here would like you to forget about Bush and concentrate on Democrats...
Just like a good Bush bot..... spin spin spin, spin the lies long enough, and maybe the sheep will forget.... spin spin spin..... spin spin spin ..... |
Who in the GOP is blaming the Democrats for the war? In what way, or for what, are they blaming them? |
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| angrychink |
Quote: Originally posted by gazill
Who in the GOP is blaming the Democrats for the war? In what way, or for what, are they blaming them? |
mostly
it's the way the repukes have to
in a braindead fashion
believe that the dem congress received the same intel as dumbya did
that is just basically a lie that repukes have to keep believing
that faux belief in that fantasy is a huge problem for repukes, right now |
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| vegaseric |
Quote: Originally posted by angrychink
"major combat operations are over, and we have prevailed'
~ dumbya |
If you can't understand the comment you posted that BUSH said......then you're an idiot. Would you say the first day of the war is like the current situation involving our troops? I would say no. Then again you're a liberal and you have to fight my comment. |
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| Halcyon |
Quote: Originally posted by gazill
Who in the GOP is blaming the Democrats for the war? In what way, or for what, are they blaming them? |
Everyone in the GOP who supported Bush's plans from day one, blindly and unquestioningly.
The losers like Rush and Hannity who make a living spinning right-wing talking points into anti-democrat statements of bias and absolute hypocrisy
The religious right who held control of the Bush administration with their shitty 'email protests' that supposedly made the FCC bow down.
They're blaming the democrats because they want people to think Bush 43 was good.
They're blaming the democrats because they are right-wing extremists who cannot imagine ANYTHING that could even be PERCEIVED as liberal
They're blaming the democrats because they are paid to do a job that includes regurgitating right-wing talking points
People do things because of greed, and because of ignorance. On both sides. |
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| Halcyon |
Quote: Originally posted by vegaseric
I'm fat AND ugly. |
Hey... no argument here.... |
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| vegaseric |
| You're such a pussy. lol |
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| angrychink |
Quote: Originally posted by vegaseric
If you can't understand the comment you posted that BUSH said......then you're an idiot. Would you say the first day of the war is like the current situation involving our troops? I would say no. Then again you're a liberal and you have to fight my comment. |
fuckhead
i understand precisely what dumbya said
and why he said it
apparently you do not |
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| Halcyon |
Quote: Originally posted by vegaseric
I'm such a pussy. lol When Halcyon took me up on my offer to meet him in SF, I backed down like a fucking little cry-baby |
Yep.... you sure did |
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| vegaseric |
| Like I said, you have to fight my comment. |
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| gazill |
Quote: Originally posted by Halcyon
Everyone in the GOP who supported Bush's plans from day one, blindly and unquestioningly.
The losers like Rush and Hannity who make a living spinning right-wing talking points into anti-democrat statements of bias and absolute hypocrisy
The religious right who held control of the Bush administration with their shitty 'email protests' that supposedly made the FCC bow down.
They're blaming the democrats because they want people to think Bush 43 was good.
They're blaming the democrats because they are right-wing extremists who cannot imagine ANYTHING that could even be PERCEIVED as liberal
They're blaming the democrats because they are paid to do a job that includes regurgitating right-wing talking points
People do things because of greed, and because of ignorance. On both sides. |
You still don't provide any detail of the GOP blaming the Democrats for the war. What you provide is your critique of two radio entertainers, a comment on a religious group controlling the administration with e-mail(?) making the FCC bow down (odd, I recall many politicians from both sides of the aisle supporting the FCC's action), and about regurgitating "right wing" talking points, which is rich, because this board is RIPE with liberal talking points.
This still does not identify any GOP'er blaming the Democrats for the war. I do not want to hear about some journalist laying blame, they all (left and right) make their living doing that. |
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| angrychink |
gazill
the way the repukes are trying to blame the dems for the war
goes like this
repukes have to lie about the intelligence (not smarts, but information) dumbya had with regard to iraq
you know...the bush admin was spewing yellow cake, niger, aluminum tubes, mobile weapons labs, you know...total fabricated bullshit like that
the repukes are now blaming the dems for believing the repukes' lies
great country, huh? |
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| Halcyon |
Quote: Originally posted by gazill
You still don't provide any detail of the GOP blaming the Democrats for the war. What you provide is your critique of two radio entertainers, a comment on a religious group controlling the administration with e-mail(?) making the FCC bow down (odd, I recall many politicians from both sides of the aisle supporting the FCC's action), and about regurgitating "right wing" talking points, which is rich, because this board is RIPE with liberal talking points.
This still does not identify any GOP'er blaming the Democrats for the war. I do not want to hear about some journalist laying blame, they all (left and right) make their living doing that. |
So what is it that DUDE-HERE and SDVT-2 and Psychomike do when they cut'n'paste articles about blaming Democrats for the war?
Is that a spin?
Is that true?
What I've given you is an idea on what the GOP spin machine is doing, through religious groups, through radio personalities, through idiots on this board like you who believe anything they say, through the FCC 'bowing down' from Nipple-gate to censoring Howard Stern....
You of all people should step back and look at the bigger picture. I think you're a pretty open-minded individual, and I'm not sure if you're trying to catch me in some fallacy of logic, but the fact remains...
The republicans will do WHATEVER it takes to spin this War as a Democrat failure...
Presidential elections are coming next year.... is it uncommon to start a spin machine so you can make yourself look a little better next year by mudslinging the year before?
Think about it. |
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| angrychink |
bush is a republican
that's all anybody needs to know or remember
yahoo |
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| Stonewall |
Quote: Originally posted by angrychink
gazill
the way the repukes are trying to blame the dems for the war
goes like this
repukes have to lie about the intelligence (not smarts, but information) dumbya had with regard to iraq
you know...the bush admin was spewing yellow cake, niger, aluminum tubes, mobile weapons labs, you know...total fabricated bullshit like that
the repukes are now blaming the dems for believing the repukes' lies
great country, huh? |
Your right. You can't blame the Democrats. They voted for or against a war and never read the intelligence. Can't blame them. They are blameless because how can you blame people who vote for something they know nothing about? Thats crazy to do.
The worst that can be said about the Democrats is that they voted without any knowledge whatsoever. Blindly voting for or against war.
I wonder have the Democrats voted on anything else they have no knowledge of?
They did vote recently for a new General in Iraq, but then seemed confused of his mission to add more troops. So, it is possible they voted without knowledge or even any thinking at all.
Then they voted for not adding more troops and have claimed defeat in Iraq, but they voted support for the troops. We love you, we just hate what you do. Here's some body armour in your lost fight. We love you, but we didn't read the intelligence and we voted for war anyway. |
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| angrychink |
Quote: Originally posted by Stonewall
Your right. You can't blame the Democrats. They voted for or against a war and never read the intelligence. Can't blame them. They are blameless because how can you blame people who vote for something they know nothing about? Thats crazy to do.
The worst that can be said about the Democrats is that they voted without any knowledge whatsoever. Blindly voting for or against war.
I wonder have the Democrats voted on anything else they have no knowledge of?
They did vote recently for a new General in Iraq, but then seemed confused of his mission to add more troops. So, it is possible they voted without knowledge or even any thinking at all.
Then they voted for not adding more troops and have claimed defeat in Iraq, but they voted support for the troops. We love you, we just hate what you do. Here's some body armour in your lost fight. We love you, but we didn't read the intelligence and we voted for war anyway. |
read over your first paragraph
maybe, because you're a repuke, you're confused
dems were lied to, now, you want to blame the dems for believing bush's lies?
they did not 'have no knowledge whatsoever'
remember, they were force fed and crammed WITH THE BULLSHIT WMD INFO?
see, it is this necessary selective ignorance that you keep exhibiting that makes you look like a retard |
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| Stonewall |
Quote: Originally posted by angrychink
read over your first paragraph
maybe, because you're a repuke, you're confused
dems were lied to, now, you want to blame the dems for believing bush's lies?
they did not 'have no knowledge whatsoever'
remember, they were force fed and crammed WITH THE BULLSHIT WMD INFO?
see, it is this necessary selective ignorance that you keep exhibiting that makes you look like a retard |
Here is a really good "kit" from the Carnegie Endowment for Peace. Read it...
http://www.carnegieendowment.org/fi...3Appendices.pdf
It includes the Key Judgements of the NIE and other things.
Anyway, how many in Congress read the NIE before they voted for War? |
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| angrychink |
Quote: Originally posted by Stonewall
Here is a really good "kit" from the Carnegie Endowment for Peace. Read it...
http://www.carnegieendowment.org/fi...3Appendices.pdf
It includes the Key Judgements of the NIE and other things.
Anyway, how many in Congress read the NIE before they voted for War? |
gazill/stonewall whatever....
if you want to start mentioning the NIE
you need to explain why dumbya totally ignored information from THE LATEST NIE
to keep bleating bullshit like 'somarra'
why do you refer to an old NIE?
and not the more current one?
really, the way you twist these NIEs around makes you look dishonest (for party) |
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| Stonewall |
Quote: Originally posted by angrychink
gazill/stonewall whatever....
if you want to start mentioning the NIE
you need to explain why dumbya totally ignored information from THE LATEST NIE
to keep bleating bullshit like 'somarra'
why do you refer to an old NIE?
and not the more current one?
really, the way you twist these NIEs around makes you look dishonest (for party) |
I am not going to defend anything beyond what we are discussing, the original lie or no lie.
I disagree almost entirely with the Administration on the domestic front. I pick and choose what to support in any administration. I never really agree with any administration on the domestic front. I like the Judges that Bush put in.
I believe that going into Iraq was a mistake, probably.
I did not vote for Bush in either 2000 or 2004.
I believe things in Iraq are not as we are told. It has gotten very political. Nothing would surprise me either way. I have no reason to believe any opinion on Iraq. And, that is why I question what will occur when we pull out. Not to stop a pull out but to figure out what to expect. I have no reason to believe things are going to go well. |
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| gazill |
Quote: Originally posted by Halcyon
So what is it that DUDE-HERE and SDVT-2 and Psychomike do when they cut'n'paste articles about blaming Democrats for the war?
Is that a spin?
Is that true?
What I've given you is an idea on what the GOP spin machine is doing, through religious groups, through radio personalities, through idiots on this board like you who believe anything they say, through the FCC 'bowing down' from Nipple-gate to censoring Howard Stern....
You of all people should step back and look at the bigger picture. I think you're a pretty open-minded individual, and I'm not sure if you're trying to catch me in some fallacy of logic, but the fact remains...
The republicans will do WHATEVER it takes to spin this War as a Democrat failure...
Presidential elections are coming next year.... is it uncommon to start a spin machine so you can make yourself look a little better next year by mudslinging the year before?
Think about it. |
First, I apologize for such brief posts, but work takes precedence.
I guess what I am saying is that Democrats are not being blamed for the war, but rather are being called to task by trying to step away from their votes to authorize the war. I think Hillary is the best example of this, trying to cater to the hard left anti-war crowd, while appeasing those who support the war. She voted for it, and made plenty of statements regarding SH (and she saw plenty during the time when she said "We are the president"). I have not read or heard anyone specifically blaming for the war. If that is not what you meant, well, consider this an exercise in typing.....
As to Republicans spinning the war as a Democratic failure, I agree they are, and they should. I believe the Democrats, some more blatantly than others, have done all they could do to hamper progress in the war. However, it is not solely a Democratic issue, and there are plenty (I mean PLENTY) of mistakes made by the administration, but none that amount to statements made by Kerry, Kennedy, Gore, Clinton, etc. I know this will make most on this board think less of me, not that I care, but the battle was won (SH was deposed and will do no more harm); the occupation/training of the Iraqi military has been less than successful. The war is ongoing, and Iran is trying to push things along, but I question whether they will really do anything (I supect, and hope, it is nothing but posturing).
Mudslinging is nonstop, it is just the amount of mud, and how oozing it is that changes. I think it is starting just a bit early, but I think most of the mud will be coming from Hillary's camp. Obama has successfully stolen so much of the momentum I think she counted on that she is going to go after him fiercely. I think this is the most frustrating part of politics in this country.
Anyway, though incomplete, I have to stop this post and return to the duties at hand.... |
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| DUDE-HERE |
Quote: Originally posted by oat
The Democrats are going to yell at people in South Carolina because they have a rebel flag at the capitol... In other words, they will do nothing...... Nothing that matters..... |
that flag should be done away with |
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| Halcyon |
Quote: Originally posted by gazill
First, I apologize for such brief posts, but work takes precedence.
Absolutely... I work all day while posting on SFN and know just what you mean. No apology necessary.
I guess what I am saying is that Democrats are not being blamed for the war, but rather are being called to task by trying to step away from their votes to authorize the war. I think Hillary is the best example of this, trying to cater to the hard left anti-war crowd, while appeasing those who support the war. She voted for it, and made plenty of statements regarding SH (and she saw plenty during the time when she said "We are the president"). I have not read or heard anyone specifically blaming for the war. If that is not what you meant, well, consider this an exercise in typing.....
Hillary is a bitch, and you're right, she tries to play BOTH sides of the fence while not really trying to act like it. But I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say in this paragraph other than, "I think we should blame Hillary for Iraq"
As to Republicans spinning the war as a Democratic failure, I agree they are, and they should. I believe the Democrats, some more blatantly than others, have done all they could do to hamper progress in the war. However, it is not solely a Democratic issue, and there are plenty (I mean PLENTY) of mistakes made by the administration, but none that amount to statements made by Kerry, Kennedy, Gore, Clinton, etc. I know this will make most on this board think less of me, not that I care, but the battle was won (SH was deposed and will do no more harm); the occupation/training of the Iraqi military has been less than successful. The war is ongoing, and Iran is trying to push things along, but I question whether they will really do anything (I supect, and hope, it is nothing but posturing).
HERE is where we disagree. I think your problem is you're not seeing that the mistakes Bush and his administration made were made DURING the time that the Republicans controlled EVERYTHING. They controlled the house, the senate, and the executive branch. Bush and Cheney refused to accept any intelligence that stated invading Iraq was a clear failure of a strategy. They ran in anyway. Sure some of the Democrats voted for it. They voted for it under the premise of a lie. They assumed the president had done his homework and actually reviewed all of the intelligence. So most, if not all, didn't bother to READ the authorization to GO to war... they just voted a resounding yes. If you think Democrats are to blame for the small part they played in that, yes, I agree... but the majority was Republicans to blame.
Mudslinging is nonstop, it is just the amount of mud, and how oozing it is that changes. I think it is starting just a bit early, but I think most of the mud will be coming from Hillary's camp. Obama has successfully stolen so much of the momentum I think she counted on that she is going to go after him fiercely. I think this is the most frustrating part of politics in this country.
Mudslinging occurs every day from politicians... wether an election is imminent or not. Those two are jockeying for the position of presidential primary candidacy, that is all. It happens in republican camps too...
Anyway, though incomplete, I have to stop this post and return to the duties at hand.... |
See my comments in Red
Thanks for you insightful comments. I look forward to your response. |
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| gazill |
Quote: Originally posted by Halcyon
See my comments in Red
Thanks for you insightful comments. I look forward to your response. |
You said "Hillary is a bitch, and you're right, she tries to play BOTH sides of the fence while not really trying to act like it. But I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say in this paragraph other than, "I think we should blame Hillary for Iraq"
I say:
I agree she is a bitch, but I am not saying she is to blame for Iraq (the true blame for Iraq was hanged a month or two ago), but rather that she and all the others who authorized military force, and backed their vote with statements are trying to negate their votes by "blaming" Bush. I chose Hillary, because, she did vote for authorization, she did make proclamations condemning SH and his brutality, and now she is stating if she knew then what she knew now, she would not have voted? Did all of a sudden SH not become a brutal dicatator. Clearly, stockpiles of WMD were not found. However, her vote and claims, like the authorization, were not based solely on WMD. I think her inability to stand up and defend herself solidly, and not twist in the wind to make everyone "see her position" is going to cost her. Bottom line: I do not blame Democrats for (authorizing) the war.
You said:
"HERE is where we disagree. I think your problem is you're not seeing that the mistakes Bush and his administration made were made DURING the time that the Republicans controlled EVERYTHING. They controlled the house, the senate, and the executive branch. Bush and Cheney refused to accept any intelligence that stated invading Iraq was a clear failure of a strategy. They ran in anyway. Sure some of the Democrats voted for it. They voted for it under the premise of a lie. They assumed the president had done his homework and actually reviewed all of the intelligence. So most, if not all, didn't bother to READ the authorization to GO to war... they just voted a resounding yes. If you think Democrats are to blame for the small part they played in that, yes, I agree... but the majority was Republicans to blame".
I say:
I do see the mistakes Bush made. One of the biggest problems on this board is that those left of me, NCMike, Psychomike, etc., assume we fail to see the errors of the current administration. When we don't reply to the 8 million cuts/pastes, there inevitably is "funny how no Bushbots (or whatever term is in vogue) are defending him" (along those lines, you know what I mean). Well, that is why, we don't agree with everything. I could provide a laundry list of things I disagree with (immigration; No child Left Behind; drunken sailor spending, blah, blah, blah. The list is long). This goes for not just the President, but the Republican Congress and Senate as well. However, with Iraq, it is not as easy to say it was a lie. Pre-2006 elections, all the talk was impeach Bush as he lied about Iraq. When the Democrats saw they stood a good chance on taking control, they switched from impeachment on Iraq to corruption; that pedophile guy (cannot reacall his name); and any other "easy to choose" issue, because they knew there would be no way in hell they could get an impeachment. It is easy for them to say they were not provided intel, but since this intel was also prior to Bush, that is a weak statement. It went through committees,and god know how many hands. Those voting were in the Senate and in Congress, on Committees involved in security etc. long before Bush was even a candidate. So all of sudden, in 2005 when elections are looming, it is suddenly a lie? I don't buy it. You can buy it all you want. Plus, any politician who said they didn't read the authorization for military action and voted on it clearly does not belong in that position. I would be ashamed of myself if that were the case.
You said:
"Mudslinging occurs every day from politicians... wether an election is imminent or not. Those two are jockeying for the position of presidential primary candidacy, that is all. It happens in republican camps too..."
I say:
I agree with you there, just have never liked it as it takes away from the true issues. I am just interested in hearing how Hillary deflects attacks (the pattern thus far is, if a Republican dares even criticize her, it is part of the "right-wing conspiracy," and if it comes from a Democrat, it is the "politics of personal attack," which of course she never engages in). I hope Obama knows what he is in for. He seems a decent guy, I do not know any of his positions, other than the war, which I obviously disagree with (you know us "chickenhawks"), so that would eliminate my vote. I think as a representative of Illinois, he beats Durbin in class, as least.
Anyway, enough rambling. Have a grand weekend.... |
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