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Ethanol: Energy Panacea or False Promise?
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| Ethanol: Energy Panacea or False Promise?
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| tourette_ticker |
Ethanol: Energy Panacea or False Promise?
By Charles Q. Choi
Special to LiveScience
posted: 18 April 2007
Quote: Now that experts know how to convert prairie grass and leftover lumber into ethanol, six biorefineries scheduled for completion within five years could help the United States produce 130 million additional gallons of the fuel per year.
Ethanol, more commonly known as drinking alcohol, is touted by some as a viable alternative fuel for vehicles. Although its energy content is roughly two-thirds that of gasoline by volume, ethanol is increasingly flowing into gas tanks, with some one out of every eight gallons of gas sold in the United States containing 8 to 10 percent ethanol.
Yet there is heated debate among scientists as to whether or not ethanol really is good for the environment.
Studies hint, for instance, that ethanol might guzzle more energy during its manufacture than it provides, and that it might strain valuable water resources. Recent findings also suggest fuels high in ethanol may pose an equal or greater risk to public health than regular gasoline.
Corn ethanol and E85
Unlike gasoline, ethanol is made renewably, from plants, which naturally soak up the greenhouse gas carbon dioxide. Ethanol production and consumption might therefore release less carbon dioxide into the atmosphere than gasoline use does.
In the United States, ethanol is most often made from corn. Some 13 percent of the U.S. corn crop was devoted to making ethanol in 2004. "There are certainly benefits with ethanol if you're a farmer in terms of subsidies," said Stanford atmospheric scientist Mark Jacobson.
E85, a fuel blend of 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent gasoline, could power millions of flexible-fuel vehicles already on the roads and is available at more than 1,000 service stations.
However, the U.S. supply of ethanol is small when compared with gasoline. The United States currently uses roughly 140 billion gallons of gasoline a year, more than any other country. In contrast, the country produced roughly 4 billion gallons of ethanol in 2004. Most stations carrying E85 are in the Midwest, and the fuel is rare and expensive in the rest of country.
Although the six biorefineries scheduled for completion by 2011 won't by themselves add great volumes to existing U.S. ethanol production, they are part of a strategy to demonstrate that ethanol can be generated more cost-effectively from the hundreds of millions of tons of cellulose in plant scrap that would otherwise go to waste.
"Those could show that you can really bring the cost of ethanol down," chemical engineer Bruce Dale at Michigan State University told LiveScience. "I believe we'll demonstrate in less than five years that we can make ethanol from cellulose for in the neighborhood of $1.20 a gallon. Given that gas is now about $3 a gallon lots of places, I think people will fall all over themselves trying to put together supply chains to make cellulosic ethanol."
Energy for making it
Critical points of contention over ethanol regard whether or not creating it requires more energy than consuming it gives off. Although a great deal of energy that goes into ethanol comes from the sun, much human effort is also required when it comes to processing raw plant material to make ethanol. And there are the efforts that go along with farming and pesticide and fertilizer use.
Research from applied economist Jason Hill at the University of Minnesota and his colleagues found you do get more energy from ethanol than you put in it, some 25 percent more. "So there is the benefit of energy gain there," Hill said in a telephone interview.
However, research by chemical engineer Tad Patzek at the University of California, Berkeley and others finds you get less energy from ethanol than you put in it, returning just 26 percent of the energy invested into making the fuel.
"Ethanol has this false promise of satisfying our transportation fuel needs," Patzek said.
Also, ethanol may not cut down on carbon dioxide emissions as much as hoped. Energy expert Alexander Farrell at the University of California, Berkeley and his colleagues found that replacing gasoline with corn ethanol would reduce a car's total greenhouse gas emissions by only about 13 percent, since creating ethanol in itself produces a lot of pollution.
Dale contended that cellulosic ethanol could even cut total greenhouse gas emissions by 90 percent. However, Patzek suggested ethanol manufacture and consumption could release more greenhouse gases into the air than gasoline usage does.
"A problem I see is the 'nirvana fuel syndrome,' where there's some fuel with no problems," Dale said. "I would say instead, 'What problems does this fuel have compared with others?' I would say that ethanol as a replacement for gasoline is in almost every measurement far superior to gasoline, in terms of climate effects and getting away from the screw situation you have geopolitically with oil."
Patzek remained unconvinced. "Not only can ethanol not supply all of the nation's fuel demand, it can't even supply a small fraction of it," he said. "That's the bottom line." |
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| tourette_ticker |
I have long thought that ethanol is not the solution to our energy needs. It has too low of an energy content. We need to come up with something and in a hurry, but ethanol ain't it.
Besides it makes corn too expensive. |
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| DUDE-HERE |
actually did any of you know this
theres a totilla shortage in mexico as a result of ethenol....so the price of tortillas went up in mexico 30 % ...much of the corn meant for food is now going towards energy |
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| Halcyon |
Quote: Originally posted by DUDE-HERE
actually did any of you know this
theres a totilla shortage in mexico as a result of ethenol....so the price of tortillas went up in mexico 30 % ...much of the corn meant for food is now going towards energy |
Will this drive many more mexicans 'across the border' illegally in order to get a 'cheap taco'?
GO! |
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| DUDE-HERE |
Quote: Originally posted by Halcyon
Will this drive many more mexicans 'across the border' illegally in order to get a 'cheap taco'?
GO! |
i would a mile for a taco
thats what i had for lunch today |
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| JTProcess |
Quote: Originally posted by DUDE-HERE
actually did any of you know this
theres a totilla shortage in mexico as a result of ethenol....so the price of tortillas went up in mexico 30 % ...much of the corn meant for food is now going towards energy |
HA HA HA HA... I believe that.
The corn lobby here in the US is really powerful which is probably why Ethanol is being touted as the "next big thing" in energy... but there are so many other options... steam, hydrogen, solar... they way technology is evolving these options are becoming more and more viable.
Back to corn though... ever notice how EVERYTHING you eat has "high fructose corn syrup" in it?... seriously.. start reading the ingredients on the foods you eat... corn syrup is in EVERYTHING.
I wonder why?
Anybody have an answer? |
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| Halcyon |
Quote: Originally posted by JTProcess
HA HA HA HA... I believe that.
The corn lobby here in the US is really powerful which is probably why Ethanol is being touted as the "next big thing" in energy... but there are so many other options... steam, hydrogen, solar... they way technology is evolving these options are becoming more and more viable.
Back to corn though... ever notice how EVERYTHING you eat has "high fructose corn syrup" in it?... seriously.. start reading the ingredients on the foods you eat... corn syrup is in EVERYTHING.
I wonder why?
Anybody have an answer? |
BLAME CANADA! |
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| NCMike06 |
This on the heals of the admission that non-corn based fuels are going to be a little harder to produce than earlier thought.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/17/b...int&oref=slogin
Quote: Government officials gave optimistic speeches. In the background, workers prepared a new network of pipes, tanks and conveyor belts.
That was in October 1998, when ethanol from crop wastes seemed to be just around the corner.
It still is. Last February, company officials gathered here once again, to break ground on a plant designed to make ethanol by yet another method.
At the time of the first ceremony, the Energy Department was predicting that ethanol produced from cellulosic waste would be in the market by about 2009 in the same volume as ethanol from the conventional source, corn.
But no company has yet been able to produce ethanol from cellulose in mass quantities that are priced competitively with corn-based ethanol. And without the cellulosic ethanol, the national goal for ethanol production will be impossible to reach.
“Producing cellulosic ethanol is clearly more difficult than we thought in the 1990s,” said Dan W. Reicher, who was assistant secretary of energy efficiency and renewable energy at the time of the first ceremony and who spoke here then. |
THere is no wonderful solution just around the corner. We need, and will need oil for decades to come. NOTHING will change that fact. Some people just need to accept that fact. |
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| kali |
Ethanol should just be ONE of Many solutions to energy.
the problem is having ONE energy source.
if you put all your eggs in one basket, you get fucked if all those eggs get busted.
ya know? :hw: |
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| NCMike06 |
Quote: Originally posted by JTProcess
HA HA HA HA... I believe that.
The corn lobby here in the US is really powerful which is probably why Ethanol is being touted as the "next big thing" in energy... but there are so many other options... steam, hydrogen, solar... they way technology is evolving these options are becoming more and more viable.
Back to corn though... ever notice how EVERYTHING you eat has "high fructose corn syrup" in it?... seriously.. start reading the ingredients on the foods you eat... corn syrup is in EVERYTHING.
I wonder why?
Anybody have an answer? |
Because it is/WAS a cheap way to make foods sweet?? Or whatever else that was used for. Its basic economics....if more corn is used for ethanol, less corn will be available for other uses. INCREASED demand = INCREASED cost, accross the board. !! |
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| NCMike06 |
Quote: Originally posted by kali
Ethanol should just be ONE of Many solutions to energy.
the problem is having ONE energy source.
if you put all your eggs in one basket, you get fucked if all those eggs get busted.
ya know? :hw: |
I agree....which then means that we still need to drill for oil, find new sources, and tap the known unused sources we currently have.
And research the others in the meantime. |
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| Luther |
| A new technology must be developed that does work by burning fuel, whether that be gasoline or ethanol or liquefied coal. |
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| Glenda Yenta |
Swithgrass is a better source as it's higher in cellulose and therefore will produce more per ethanol per acre.
I agree we need to think of all sources like wind, solar, hydro, bio, and nuclear. |
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| Billyfromsphily |
| The price of growing corn is directly linked to the cost of the energy used to fertilize it and transport it. Sort of a catch 22 system. Sugar cane is a better crop for ethanol. |
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| kali |
Quote: Originally posted by Billyfromsphily
The price of growing corn is directly linked to the cost of the energy used to fertilize it and transport it. Sort of a catch 22 system. Sugar cane is a better crop for ethanol. |
that's why certain energy sources should be a local issue!
places that can easily grow corn/sugar/whatever are great places for using that.
quiet revolution makes wind turbines that can be used in urban areas. clever design makes this an intelligent solution.
when people use their brains, it's amazing what they can come up with! |
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| Luther |
Quote: Originally posted by Glenda Yenta
Swithgrass is a better source as it's higher in cellulose and therefore will produce more per ethanol per acre.
I agree we need to think of all sources like wind, solar, hydro, bio, and nuclear. |
I disagree vehemently with nuclear energy. It is a scam. I would even say that it is crime against humanity and the Earth. |
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| Billyfromsphily |
rule nuclear out. It is cost ineffective and too many hazards persist.
Can you name one nuclear power plant that has been built since 1979? |
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| Glenda Yenta |
Know nukes.
Anyhow we can probably get by with other sources. |
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| tourette_ticker |
Quote: Originally posted by Luther
I disagree vehemently with nuclear energy. It is a scam. I would even say that it is crime against humanity and the Earth. |
No nukes until they have something to do with the waste. And not just stash it away. I don't like it unless we can neutralize the radioactivity. And I don't know that we ever can. |
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| Halcyon |
Quote: Originally posted by tourette_ticker
No nukes until they have something to do with the waste. And not just stash it away. I don't like it unless we can neutralize the radioactivity. And I don't know that we ever can. |
When we can neutralize radioactivity... we could neutralize the sun itself....
And usher in a new breed of terrorism.... |
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| Stickman |
Quote: Originally posted by NCMike06
This on the heals of the admission that non-corn based fuels are going to be a little harder to produce than earlier thought.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/17/b...int&oref=slogin
THere is no wonderful solution just around the corner. We need, and will need oil for decades to come. NOTHING will change that fact. Some people just need to accept that fact. |
Wow, you are the most consistently inaccurate and insidious poster on this board. Your complete faith in administration policies borders on the treasonous.
The US is in the current situation that it's in because for too long people have had the attitude you have. Your only solution is oil, while the rest of the world is developing technologies such as algaic oil, pyrallisis, cheap efficient solar, and other highly advanced technologies.
The one thing you're correct about is that ethanol is a joke. What you're not smart enough to realize is that the president and administration that you have sold your soul for has pushed both oil and corn ethanol because they control those resources, and they require big, expensive armies to protect.
I run 100% biodiesel. I turn a waste product into a clean powerful fuel. You don't think a lot of other people around the world are doing the same and better? |
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| NCMike06 |
Quote: Originally posted by Stickman
Wow, you are the most consistently inaccurate and insidious poster on this board. Your complete faith in administration policies borders on the treasonous. |
WHy don't you point out the 'innaccurracies' in the artile I posted, genius?? Instead of spewing out your typical, nonsensical talking point. So old...so tired.
Quote: Originally posted by Stickman
The US is in the current situation that it's in because for too long people have had the attitude you have. Your only solution is oil, while the rest of the world is developing technologies such as algaic oil, pyrallisis, cheap efficient solar, and other highly advanced technologies. |
WHy don't you scroll down a few posts, and learn something. THe post where I agreed that we need a diverse energy system, but that oil will still be a huge part of that system regardless of what twits like you think, or like.
Quote: Originally posted by Stickman
The one thing you're correct about is that ethanol is a joke. What you're not smart enough to realize is that the president and administration that you have sold your soul for has pushed both oil and corn ethanol because they control those resources, and they require big, expensive armies to protect. |
But OIL isn't a joke...it is plentiful, inexpensive (yes, thats right, inexpensive) and it is the fuel that drives our economy. All of your hate-Bush rhetoric won't change that fact. The sooner that loons like you move into reality, the sooner we can all move forward sensibly.
You might want to check who ALSO supports corn and ethanol subsidies....here is a clue, numnuts....DEMOCRATS !
Quote: Originally posted by Stickman
I run 100% biodiesel. I turn a waste product into a clean powerful fuel. You don't think a lot of other people around the world are doing the same and better? |
As soon as some company can mass produce it, and get a distribution system in place, that might work...until then....its OIL - OIL -OIL. deal with it ! |
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| tourette_ticker |
Quote: Originally posted by NCMike06
As soon as some company can mass produce it, and get a distribution system in place, that might work...until then....its OIL - OIL -OIL. deal with it ! |
Economics is the only think that can dethrone oil. Once another form of energy is cheaper/better it will be used. |
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| Stickman |
Quote: Originally posted by NCMike06
....its OIL - OIL -OIL. deal with it ! |
Not only do I not deal with it, I haven't bought fuel at a gas station in two and a half months.
Gas stations are for buying beer. |
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| Glenda Yenta |
| Americans are obviously not that interested in conservation given their appetite for big cars and big homes. Not that I am condemning anyone for their personal choices. It's a free country. Once people feel the price of gas or home energy is too high they'll do something. The ones I don't sympathize with ar the ones that whine when gas goes over three bucks a gallon because they drive an SUV with poor milage and didn't have the foresight to see it would be a strain on their wallett. |
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| Stickman |
Quote: Originally posted by tourette_ticker
Economics is the only think that can dethrone oil. Once another form of energy is cheaper/better it will be used. |
It already is in South America and parts of Europe.
The US is getting left in the dust on yet another emerging industry.
Oil is archaic, dirty, causes war and foreign and domestic terrorists. |
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| Glenda Yenta |
Quote: Originally posted by Stickman
It already is in South America and parts of Europe.
The US is getting left in the dust on yet another emerging industry.
Oil is archaic, dirty, causes war and foreign and domestic terrorists. |
And Brazil. They're far ahead of the curve down there. |
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| NCMike06 |
Quote: Originally posted by tourette_ticker
Economics is the only think that can dethrone oil. Once another form of energy is cheaper/better it will be used. |
:bigclap: BRAVO !! Well said ! |
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| NCMike06 |
Quote: Originally posted by Stickman
It already is in South America and parts of Europe.
The US is getting left in the dust on yet another emerging industry.
Oil is archaic, dirty, causes war and foreign and domestic terrorists. |
IF this is true, especially to the extent you claim...the worldwide demand for oil would be DECREASING. If the worldwide demand for oil decreases....and takes a serious dive, it would mean cheaper oil for everyone else due to increased supply.
Is all supply and demand. |
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| NC-Stern-Mark |
I didn't read any of the thread, just the subject but I already know Ethanol is just another way for corporations to suck the blood from our veins.
Fucking corn prices are the through the roof, Even the poor Mexicans are hurting over this bullshit. |
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| Billyfromsphily |
| It will also drive the price of corn fed beef and poultry up! Who doesn't like a steak, burger or chicken leg! |
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| tourette_ticker |
Quote: Originally posted by Billyfromsphily
It will also drive the price of corn fed beef and poultry up! Who doesn't like a steak, burger or chicken leg! |
That's a good point Billy, I hadn't thought of that. |
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| Stickman |
Quote: Originally posted by NCMike06
IF this is true, especially to the extent you claim...the worldwide demand for oil would be DECREASING. If the worldwide demand for oil decreases....and takes a serious dive, it would mean cheaper oil for everyone else due to increased supply.
Is all supply and demand. |
The only reason the demand for oil is stable to increasing is because of China, Russia and India. They are growing so fast it far outpaces the economies that are moving away from fossil fuels.
This is why I'm sure the chickenhawk pussies will only saber rattle at Iran but the US can never attack Iran because they provide a tremendous amount of oil to China.
It all goes back to the same thing, whoever controls middle east oil reserves controls world economies. The US is just not in a position to be the major player in this regard. Thanks to the administration, the military shot its load in Iraq and the myth of military superiority is destroyed forever.
Among Bush's biggest mistakes is destroying the false belief that the US is infallible militarily. Now everyone knows that the US is a paper tiger.
The best thing we could do (though I know it won't happen anytime soon) is begin the painful process of separating our economy from fossil fuels. |
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| Billyfromsphily |
| How much Oil does China import to make all that crap for WAL MART? |
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| Halcyon |
Quote: Originally posted by Stickman
The only reason the demand for oil is stable to increasing is because of China, Russia and India. They are growing so fast it far outpaces the economies that are moving away from fossil fuels.
This is why I'm sure the chickenhawk pussies will only saber rattle at Iran but the US can never attack Iran because they provide a tremendous amount of oil to China.
It all goes back to the same thing, whoever controls middle east oil reserves controls world economies. The US is just not in a position to be the major player in this regard. Thanks to the administration, the military shot its load in Iraq and the myth of military superiority is destroyed forever.
Among Bush's biggest mistakes is destroying the false belief that the US is infallible militarily. Now everyone knows that the US is a paper tiger.
The best thing we could do (though I know it won't happen anytime soon) is begin the painful process of separating our economy from fossil fuels. |
I find it funny that the 'Saudi' Princes and the Middle Eastern dictators in their perspective countries are considered "rich" because they have Oil.... meanwhile, while they may be "rich" because they sell oil to other countries, they still make PENNIES compared to the Oil companies who buy the oil for cheap and then rape their own countries selling it as gasoline.
For all the profits the Middle Eastern rulers make, the oil tycoons in charge of the major companies put everyone to shame.... those are the REAL "saudi princes" |
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