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artiel

NEW YORK (AP) - Democrat John Edwards Wednesday repudiated the notion that there is a “global war on terror,” calling it an ideological doctrine advanced by the Bush administration that has strained American military resources and emboldened terrorists.

In a defense policy speech he planned to deliver at the Council on Foreign Relations, Edwards called the war on terror a “bumper sticker” slogan Bush had used to justify everything from abuses at the Abu Ghraib prison to the invasion of Iraq.

“We need a post-Bush, post-9/11, post-Iraq military that is mission focused on protecting Americans from 21st century threats, not misused for discredited ideological purposes,” Edwards said in remarks prepared for delivery. “By framing this as a war, we have walked right into the trap the terrorists have set—that we are engaged in some kind of clash of civilizations and a war on Islam.”

NeoConvict

Doesn't this libatard know that if we don't attack the enemy before they attack us, then we won't know who the enemy is? How can we possibly expect to be safe when there are still terrorists running around loose? Sure, the only real definition of a terrorist is someone that wants to see harm done to this country, but how many of those could there be? America is beloved and the actions of President Bush will soon be shown to be the actions that unite the entire world. There may be those that dislike us now, but soon in the future they will embrace us as liberators.... as soon as we bomb their country, eliminate their infrastructure, murder their civilians, rape their piggish women and infect their children with a greater sense of anti-American sentiment, leaving them to grow up to hate America because we murdered their father and raped their mother. After all that though, they will see that we have liberated... wait, l-i-b-e-r I don't like the way that sounds... they will see that we have CONSERVated them.

VacateTheWord

John Edwards, with his $400 haircuts and $55,000 lectures to public universities while trying to pass himself off as a populist - and now this. He is becoming increasingly irrelevant, day by day.

Go home and get a $500 foot massage John, and let realists deal with terrorism.

Halcyon

Quote: Originally posted by VacateTheWord
John Edwards, with his $400 haircuts and $55,000 lectures to public universities while trying to pass himself off as a populist - and now this. He is becoming increasingly irrelevant, day by day.

Go home and get a $500 foot massage John, and let realists deal with terrorism.

The war is a hoax

VacateTheWord

Quote: Originally posted by Halcyon
The war is a hoax

Oh really?

Explain this -

New al Qaeda Tapes Feature U.S. Capitol Under 'Attack'

Al Qaeda has a new opening graphic for its propaganda tapes: the U.S. Capitol under "attack."

"The Islamic State of Iraq...March Toward Washington" reads the headline in English superimposed over a digitally created scene of the U.S. Capitol under attack in the introductory sequence of one tape released on the Internet this week.

Another from al Qaeda's "as Sahab" production arm announces "Holocaust of the Americans in the Land of Khorasan" and shows an image of the U.S. Capitol to introduce a short clip of al Qaeda fighters.

"This is a disturbing new trend," says Laura Mansfield, an Arabic expert who monitors jihadi videos on the Internet.

"Recall that in January 2006, Osama Bin Laden said that plans for attacks in the U.S. were in progress," Mansfield told the Blotter on ABCNews.com. "It may be that this new imagery is designed to motivate terrorist activity in the U.S., but it is certainly intended as a recruiting tool and perhaps intended to reassure al Qaeda's jihadi followers they haven't forgotten their goal of an al Qaeda attack on Washington, D.C.," she said.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter...l_qaeda_ta.html

Halcyon

Quote: Originally posted by VacateTheWord
Oh really?

Explain this -

New al Qaeda Tapes Feature U.S. Capitol Under 'Attack'

Al Qaeda has a new opening graphic for its propaganda tapes: the U.S. Capitol under "attack."

"The Islamic State of Iraq...March Toward Washington" reads the headline in English superimposed over a digitally created scene of the U.S. Capitol under attack in the introductory sequence of one tape released on the Internet this week.

Another from al Qaeda's "as Sahab" production arm announces "Holocaust of the Americans in the Land of Khorasan" and shows an image of the U.S. Capitol to introduce a short clip of al Qaeda fighters.

"This is a disturbing new trend," says Laura Mansfield, an Arabic expert who monitors jihadi videos on the Internet.

"Recall that in January 2006, Osama Bin Laden said that plans for attacks in the U.S. were in progress," Mansfield told the Blotter on ABCNews.com. "It may be that this new imagery is designed to motivate terrorist activity in the U.S., but it is certainly intended as a recruiting tool and perhaps intended to reassure al Qaeda's jihadi followers they haven't forgotten their goal of an al Qaeda attack on Washington, D.C.," she said.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter...l_qaeda_ta.html

The War in Error

I asked one time how we know we're actually killing AQ and not just other terrorist faction groups. No one seemed to know the difference. How do you know?

m0tleyfan

we'll see what a hoax it is when they start bombing us.the left does not understand how important it is that we win

VacateTheWord

Quote: Originally posted by Halcyon
The War in Error

I asked one time how we know we're actually killing AQ and not just other terrorist faction groups. No one seemed to know the difference. How do you know?

*Cue the liberal drumbeat*

The war was a mistake....Bush lied....."The War in Error"......blah, blah, blah.

I just showed you their new video introduction - "The Islamic State of Iraq: The March to Washington"

What the fuck else do you need - for them to be handing out business cards?

:lol: moron

I've learned from that that muslims suck at photoshop - thanks for posting moron - you'll believe anything :rolleyes:

booybob

A dead terrorist is a dead terrorist. What is the differance if it is AQ or some other group??

VacateTheWord

Quote: Originally posted by Oz
:lol: moron

I've learned from that that muslims suck at photoshop - thanks for posting moron - you'll believe anything :rolleyes:

Oh, what - another conspiracy? So who released this - Dick Cheney?

Quote: Originally posted by VacateTheWord
Oh, what - another conspiracy? So who released this - Dick Cheney?

If Cheney said it you'd believe it. Hell, if someone SAID Cheney said it you'd believe it.

Halcyon

Quote: Originally posted by booybob
A dead terrorist is a dead terrorist. What is the differance if it is AQ or some other group??

Yeah, I guess... I guess that was the whole point right? I mean, it's not like Bush said Iraq was full of AQ for us to kill, and it's not like we were supposed to be fighting AQ first since they attacked us right?

Hey, why don't we just add Iraqi citizens too!? I mean, one dead iraqi is as good as another right? And let's kill their kids too, since they'll just grow up to be terrorists right?

booybob

Quote: Originally posted by Halcyon
Yeah, I guess... I guess that was the whole point right? I mean, it's not like Bush said Iraq was full of AQ for us to kill, and it's not like we were supposed to be fighting AQ first since they attacked us right?

Hey, why don't we just add Iraqi citizens too!? I mean, one dead iraqi is as good as another right? And let's kill their kids too, since they'll just grow up to be terrorists right?

Not all of their kids, but if you kill enough of them, their will not be enough left to become terrorists.

War is a nasty thing. We try to fight fair but some time innocents get killed.

I do not think the military goes out of its way to kill civilians. Their might be a few rogue soliders
who do this, but it is not the norm.

I bet that if we start killing the families of the terrorists, the terrorists would stop or greatly reduce their attacks.

Luther

Quote: Originally posted by NeoConvict
Doesn't this libatard know that if we don't attack the enemy before they attack us, then we won't know who the enemy is? How can we possibly expect to be safe when there are still terrorists running around loose? Sure, the only real definition of a terrorist is someone that wants to see harm done to this country, but how many of those could there be? America is beloved and the actions of President Bush will soon be shown to be the actions that unite the entire world. There may be those that dislike us now, but soon in the future they will embrace us as liberators.... as soon as we bomb their country, eliminate their infrastructure, murder their civilians, rape their piggish women and infect their children with a greater sense of anti-American sentiment, leaving them to grow up to hate America because we murdered their father and raped their mother. After all that though, they will see that we have liberated... wait, l-i-b-e-r I don't like the way that sounds... they will see that we have CONSERVated them.

:lol:

Halcyon

Quote: Originally posted by VacateTheWord
*Cue the liberal drumbeat*

The war was a mistake....Bush lied....."The War in Error"......blah, blah, blah.

I just showed you their new video introduction - "The Islamic State of Iraq: The March to Washington"

What the fuck else do you need - for them to be handing out business cards?

Good job dodging my question.... I bet you fooled lots of people, but you didn't fool me. How do WE know we're killing AQ soldiers? Do they scream 'LALALAALALLALALALALALAL' differently than other factions when they attack? Do they wear bright orange jumpsuits that say "We're Al Qaeda!!" when they're sneaking around bombing people?

I guess you missed those dozens of posts where I always say I hate Democrats...

But hey, to you, your with us or against us.

It's a black and white world view for you... I can understand how difficult it must be to try and sell cars with that sort of chilidish world view.

VacateTheWord

Quote: Originally posted by Halcyon
Good job dodging my question.... I bet you fooled lots of people, but you didn't fool me. How do WE know we're killing AQ soldiers? Do they scream 'LALALAALALLALALALALALAL' differently than other factions when they attack? Do they wear bright orange jumpsuits that say "We're Al Qaeda!!" when they're sneaking around bombing people?

I guess you missed those dozens of posts where I always say I hate Democrats...

But hey, to you, your with us or against us.

It's a black and white world view for you... I can understand how difficult it must be to try and sell cars with that sort of chilidish world view.

It's called intelligence (i.e. the military kind) and a wild guess when they go into a dwelling and find the place littered with munitions and Al Qaeda propaganda on computers. Also, the tribal leaders in Anbar Province are working with coalition forces in pointing out Al Qaeda.

I didn't miss anything - I said "liberal talking points," not "Democratic talking points." I know several liberals who have sworn off the Democratic party because, to them, it isn't liberal enough. There's a distinction. And like it or not, you are expressing a liberal position on this issue.

Think I have problems selling cars? On that you are gravely mistaken.

Halcyon

Quote: Originally posted by VacateTheWord
It's called intelligence (i.e. the military kind) and a wild guess when they go into a dwelling and find the place littered with munitions and Al Qaeda propaganda on computers. Also, the tribal leaders in Anbar Province are working with coalition forces in pointing out Al Qaeda.

I didn't miss anything - I said "liberal talking points," not "Democratic talking points." I know several liberals who have sworn off the Democratic party because, to them, it isn't liberal enough. There's a distinction. And like it or not, you are expressing a liberal position on this issue.

Think I have problems selling cars? On that you are gravely mistaken.

So because we found some Al Qaeda computers in a cave?

VacateTheWord

Quote: Originally posted by Halcyon
So because we found some Al Qaeda computers in a cave?

There are caves in Iraq?

jerryjr99

sure it is :rolleyes:

Halcyon

Quote: Originally posted by VacateTheWord
There are caves in Iraq?

You said dwelling... I thought you meant cave...

And you didn't exactly answer the question... you said military intelligence points to it. How do they get that intelligence... from computers in dwellings?

How do you know which dead body belongs to which dwelling?

Stonewall

There should be no doubt in anyones mind that when we are attacked again, like 9/11, the capitol will be a target. It already was a target on 9/11. They seem to return to failed missions in the past and repeat. Like the first WTC Attack being a failure in the sense that the towers were not destroyed. That was accomplished later, on 9/11.

I of course do not believe all that Edwards said is correct. He is pointing out problems and that in itself is not a bad thing. It's the correction that matters and questions lead to corrections eventually.

Islam is at war with the U.S.. What the proper course to take, because of that situation, is not so easy to figure out. Iraq was a mistake, both wars on Iraq. Especially the first one.

We need an Islamic solution. That requires a study of the religion and an understanding of it. If we ever find a long term solution it will have to be an Islamic solution. We must win from within the religion. That is how you defeat this enemy.

Halcyon

Quote: Originally posted by Stonewall
There should be no doubt in anyones mind that when we are attacked again, like 9/11, the capitol will be a target. It already was a target on 9/11. They seem to return to failed missions in the past and repeat. Like the first WTC Attack being a failure in the sense that the towers were not destroyed. That was accomplished later, on 9/11.

I of course do not believe all that Edwards said is correct. He is pointing out problems and that in itself is not a bad thing. It's the correction that matters and questions lead to corrections eventually.

Islam is at war with the U.S.. What the proper course to take, because of that situation, is not so easy to figure out. Iraq was a mistake, both wars on Iraq. Especially the first one.

We need an Islamic solution. That requires a study of the religion and an understanding of it. If we ever find a long term solution it will have to be an Islamic solution. We must win from within the religion. That is how you defeat this enemy.

Maybe we should stop deploying troops all over the world so people don't feel threatened by our presence?

Stonewall

Quote: Originally posted by Halcyon
Maybe we should stop deploying troops all over the world so people don't feel threatened by our presence?

Where are these places and how many troops do we have in each one? What are they doing there?

With that information we could decide if your quote is valid.

Quote: Originally posted by Stonewall
Where are these places and how many troops do we have in each one? What are they doing there?

With that information we could decide if your quote is valid.

and again - why should we even have two troops in another country - what difference does it make how many and what they're doing? If there were two Chinese troops here doing something other than vacationing it would be front page news - stop being an Imperialist.

Stonewall

Quote: Originally posted by Oz
and again - why should we even have two troops in another country - what difference does it make how many and what they're doing? If there were two Chinese troops here doing something other than vacationing it would be front page news - stop being an Imperialist.

It does make a difference because we are in NATO and that alone means troops stationed in NATO countries. We are in Germany, Japan, S. Korea, Iraq, and Afghanistan for obvious reasons. We train foreign countries on the use of U.S. made weapons. There are many reasons why troops might be somewhere and so the type of troops would matter, combat or advisor status. Their reason for being there. We have more U.S. Military inside the U.S. than we have in all the world combined.

Kill Van Kull

It's all about perspective.

Yes, there are people who want to kill innocent Americans. On September 11, 2001 they succeeded in killing 3000 of us.

That same month, 3000 innocent Americans died of preventable diseases. They died because they didn't have proper healthcare.

Every month in recent history before 911 -- and every month since -- and every month for the foreseeable future, we lose another 3000 innocent Americans.

The repussican kool-aid drinkers are scared little bitches – scared of the big bad terrorists.

What they don’t realize is they’re only about a bazillion times more likely to die in a car crash or from preventable illness.

So, let me ask you -- where’s the outrage?

:dontknow:

Stonewall

Quote: Originally posted by Kill Van Kull
It's all about perspective.

Yes, there are people who want to kill innocent Americans. On September 11, 2001 they succeeded in killing 3000 of us.

That same month, 3000 innocent Americans died of preventable diseases. They died because they didn't have proper healthcare.

Every month in recent history before 911 -- and every month since -- and every month for the foreseeable future, we lose another 3000 innocent Americans.

The repussican kool-aid drinkers are scared little bitches – scared of the big bad terrorists.

What they don’t realize is they’re only about a bazillion times more likely to die in a car crash or from preventable illness.

So, let me ask you -- where’s the outrage?

:dontknow:

Death by Islam is just another "disease". Our view of it is meaningless. It's not like we can prevent a well planned out attack.

Quote: Originally posted by Stonewall
It does make a difference because we are in NATO and that alone means troops stationed in NATO countries. We are in Germany, Japan, S. Korea, Iraq, and Afghanistan for obvious reasons. We train foreign countries on the use of U.S. made weapons. There are many reasons why troops might be somewhere and so the type of troops would matter, combat or advisor status. Their reason for being there. We have more U.S. Military inside the U.S. than we have in all the world combined.

S. Korea is part of NATO? If you are so naive as to not know why we have bases or soldiers stationed in 150+ countries I'm not sure how to help you.

Stonewall

Quote: Originally posted by Oz
S. Korea is part of NATO? If you are so naive as to not know why we have bases or soldiers stationed in 150+ countries I'm not sure how to help you.

I did not say S. Korea was part of NATO. I included them in another group. Here is what I wrote...

We are in Germany, Japan, S. Korea, Iraq, and Afghanistan for obvious reasons.

See?

I'm not saying I agree that we should have troops in all those places. I only said perhaps we should find out the purpose of them before we just conclude that, "Maybe we should stop deploying troops all over the world so people don't feel threatened by our presence?"

Quote: Originally posted by Stonewall
I did not say S. Korea was part of NATO. I included them in another group. Here is what I wrote...

We are in Germany, Japan, S. Korea, Iraq, and Afghanistan for obvious reasons.

See?

I'm not saying I agree that we should have troops in all those places. I only said perhaps we should find out the purpose of them before we just conclude that, "Maybe we should stop deploying troops all over the world so people don't feel threatened by our presence?"

Thank you for clarifying your poorly worded paragraph :)

How closely do you align with Pat Buchanan on this topic?

Kill Van Kull

Quote: Originally posted by Stonewall
Death by Islam is just another "disease". Our view of it is meaningless. It's not like we can prevent a well planned out attack.

On the contrary, my little towel-head fearing pussy-ass friend.

Preventable diseases are just that, preventable.

The billions Bushco has spent pumping up your fear of Islam, could have saved real, countable American lives.

Perspective.

:rolleyes:

Stonewall

Quote: Originally posted by Oz
Thank you for clarifying your poorly worded paragraph :)

How closely do you align with Pat Buchanan on this topic?

I would need an update on Pat's views. And I'm unsure of what topic we are discussing.

The thread War on Terror, or our side topic.

I believe we should pull out of Japan, Korea, Germany, Kosovo, and all Muslim Lands. The Persian Gulf. End NATO as a force and institution. We should have done that after the Warsaw Pact dissolved. We cannot any longer depend on the alliance. All we do is enable our technology to be just given away. Europe is gonna have some tough decisions to make and we should not interfere in those decisions. It's gonna be ugly. Europe has to expel it's Muslims or succumb to them. There is no happy medium or co-existence. Muslims have never allowed that condition. We cannot count on Europe as it is held in a hostage type situation where if they act with us, Spain is the example Muslims have shown.

Stonewall

Quote: Originally posted by Kill Van Kull
On the contrary, my little towel-head fearing pussy-ass friend.

Preventable diseases are just that, preventable.

The billions Bushco has spent pumping up your fear of Islam, could have saved real, countable American lives.

Perspective.

:rolleyes:

Bush is actually on your side of the religion of peace debate. He believes they are just another religion and democracy can be spread and all is well, a hijacked religion. I view his understanding of Islam in the same class as yours.

But, you are obviously quite impressed with yourself. Unfortunately what separates Man and Beast is our ability to use our brains in a much better way than they can. Everything is not instinct alone. We can learn. Learning about biologicals and viruses is not fear but knowledge pushing fear aside with solution. You can only combat that which we know. Expressing what Islam is is not fear. Of course if it can be shown where I am wrong about something in Islam, or making things up, then "fear" could be the reason someone would do that. Telling the truth about what Islam teaches is just that. The truth.

While fear may be your response it is only so because you lack any thing else to offer. So, you fall into the "fear" excuse because you apparently must say something for whatever reason.

I feel your pain...

Kill Van Kull

Quote: Originally posted by Stonewall
Bush is actually on your side of the religion of peace debate. He believes they are just another religion and democracy can be spread and all is well, a hijacked religion. I view his understanding of Islam in the same class as yours.

But, you are obviously quite impressed with yourself. Unfortunately what separates Man and Beast is our ability to use our brains in a much better way than they can. Everything is not instinct alone. We can learn. Learning about biologicals and viruses is not fear but knowledge pushing fear aside with solution. You can only combat that which we know. Expressing what Islam is is not fear. Of course if it can be shown where I am wrong about something in Islam, or making things up, then "fear" could be the reason someone would do that. Telling the truth about what Islam teaches is just that. The truth.

While fear may be your response it is only so because you lack any thing else to offer. So, you fall into the "fear" excuse because you apparently must say something for whatever reason.

I feel your pain...

I see your fear, your irrational fear.

But don't feel bad, you've been programmed to fear muslims by people who spent alot of money and time making you scared.

You literally have a better chance of being hit by lightning than killed or injured by a muslim terrorist -- yet you continue to fear them. That is irrational.

You are brainwashed, bigoted and extremely cowardly.

Enjoy.

:p

Abba

Wait a sec. You're condemning Iraqis for wanting to attack Washington, even while our troops occupy their capital city??
Here's a newsflash, buddy. If you attack someone's country, expect them to attack you back.
Holy shit, what kind of huge pussies are you people anyway? How do you not get that people fight back? Like Stonewall, you condemn people for fighting back against our agression, which leads me to believe that if the US were attacked, most of you "conservatives" would sit back and do nothing except welcome the occupiers with gifts of flowers, candy, and your skanky mothers' pussies. :rolleyes:

Quote: Originally posted by Stonewall
I would need an update on Pat's views. And I'm unsure of what topic we are discussing.

The thread War on Terror, or our side topic.

I believe we should pull out of Japan, Korea, Germany, Kosovo, and all Muslim Lands. The Persian Gulf. End NATO as a force and institution. We should have done that after the Warsaw Pact dissolved. We cannot any longer depend on the alliance. All we do is enable our technology to be just given away. Europe is gonna have some tough decisions to make and we should not interfere in those decisions. It's gonna be ugly. Europe has to expel it's Muslims or succumb to them. There is no happy medium or co-existence. Muslims have never allowed that condition. We cannot count on Europe as it is held in a hostage type situation where if they act with us, Spain is the example Muslims have shown.

yeah - you agree with Pat - just checkin :)

artiel

The thing you fail to realize is the REASON why it is a hoax. There is no doubt that there are people in the world that want to indiscriminately kill Americans. I don't think that anyone debates that. But, until they act, they are insignificant, but our actions from 9/11/01 up until today have given them credence.

The funny thing is that Bush and all of his cronies know this, but they also know that the average American is too stupid and misses the forest for the trees.

If you think that the war on terror is going to end with terror being completely eliminated from the face of the earth, you are certainly gullible, and quite stupid I will add.

If you think that the war on terror is never going to end, and will be an ongoing battle between the good and the evil, then shame on you for supporting a conflict that will result in more dead bodies than would have existed had we never started this farce.

I pray that we elect a leader strong enough to end this terrible farce, pull the troops out of the mess we call Iraq and work to repair our ties with the rest of the world through diplomacy and communication, something that we haven't had for quite some time.

When you put a name on something and define it, it becomes real. If you don't believe that, we have a fundamental difference in opinion, and there is no reason to discuss this any further.

Billyfromsphily

There have always been people who have wanted to kill Americans. The BUSH cabal is just profiting off of it!

Stonewall

Quote: Originally posted by artiel
The thing you fail to realize is the REASON why it is a hoax. There is no doubt that there are people in the world that want to indiscriminately kill Americans. I don't think that anyone debates that. But, until they act, they are insignificant, but our actions from 9/11/01 up until today have given them credence.

The funny thing is that Bush and all of his cronies know this, but they also know that the average American is too stupid and misses the forest for the trees.

If you think that the war on terror is going to end with terror being completely eliminated from the face of the earth, you are certainly gullible, and quite stupid I will add.

If you think that the war on terror is never going to end, and will be an ongoing battle between the good and the evil, then shame on you for supporting a conflict that will result in more dead bodies than would have existed had we never started this farce.

I pray that we elect a leader strong enough to end this terrible farce, pull the troops out of the mess we call Iraq and work to repair our ties with the rest of the world through diplomacy and communication, something that we haven't had for quite some time.

When you put a name on something and define it, it becomes real. If you don't believe that, we have a fundamental difference in opinion, and there is no reason to discuss this any further.

There is no doubt that there are people in the world that want to indiscriminately kill Americans. I don't think that anyone debates that. But, until they act, they are insignificant, but our actions from 9/11/01 up until today have given them credence.

The problem with your thinking is I don't believe you appreciate the complete hatred these folks have for the U.S.. Our actions after 9/11 have certainly let them understand a new reality exists. But, their hatred is no more pure than it was prior to 9/11. Waiting for them to act is not possible under our current foreign policy. In order to return to a pre-9/11 policy in regard to Islam we would have to change many things in our foreign policy and trade policy and globalization. Because regardless of what we do they are going to try to destroy us. They have to. They cannot "win" with the U.S. around. Remember the Godfather when they shot up Don Corleone and kept trying to kill him? We are that Godfather. Taking us out is the key to all things. They cannot "win" with us still alive. We have to understand that. It's not so simple as
indiscriminately killing Americans. In this modern world all manner of WMD can be created and used. A virus, biological, nuclear. For us to keep our current policies in foreign policy as was pre-9/11, then we cannot wait to be attacked. The only way we can do that is if we change our foreign policy on a mass scale. Otherwise we are locked into this. I would certainly agree that we do change our foreign policy instead of staying the course and business as usual.

artiel

Quote: Originally posted by Stonewall
There is no doubt that there are people in the world that want to indiscriminately kill Americans. I don't think that anyone debates that. But, until they act, they are insignificant, but our actions from 9/11/01 up until today have given them credence.

The problem with your thinking is I don't believe you appreciate the complete hatred these folks have for the U.S.. Our actions after 9/11 have certainly let them understand a new reality exists. But, their hatred is no more pure than it was prior to 9/11. Waiting for them to act is not possible under our current foreign policy. In order to return to a pre-9/11 policy in regard to Islam we would have to change many things in our foreign policy and trade policy and globalization. Because regardless of what we do they are going to try to destroy us. They have to. They cannot "win" with the U.S. around. Remember the Godfather when they shot up Don Corleone and kept trying to kill him? We are that Godfather. Taking us out is the key to all things. They cannot "win" with us still alive. We have to understand that. It's not so simple as
indiscriminately killing Americans. In this modern world all manner of WMD can be created and used. A virus, biological, nuclear. For us to keep our current policies in foreign policy as was pre-9/11, then we cannot wait to be attacked. The only way we can do that is if we change our foreign policy on a mass scale. Otherwise we are locked into this. I would certainly agree that we do change our foreign policy instead of staying the course and business as usual.

You're a character, right? Like NeoConvict or Stephen Colbert. This can't be an actual argument can it?

I'm going to assume that you either got beat up a lot as a kid, and never were able to stand up to bullies, so you feel that you have be one now. OR your mom never told you that not everyone in this world is going to like you and sometimes you have to just accept that.

Funny how the government claims to be so desperate to win hearts and minds, but we don't give a shit about the hearts and minds of:

a) US citizens (uhh... duh)
b) The entire continent of Europe
c) Anyone else that doesn't agree with us

Are you starting to smell the bullshit yet? If not, you better get checked because I think your olfactory nerve has been severed.

Stonewall

Quote: Originally posted by artiel
You're a character, right? Like NeoConvict or Stephen Colbert. This can't be an actual argument can it?

I'm going to assume that you either got beat up a lot as a kid, and never were able to stand up to bullies, so you feel that you have be one now. OR your mom never told you that not everyone in this world is going to like you and sometimes you have to just accept that.

Funny how the government claims to be so desperate to win hearts and minds, but we don't give a shit about the hearts and minds of:

a) US citizens (uhh... duh)
b) The entire continent of Europe
c) Anyone else that doesn't agree with us

Are you starting to smell the bullshit yet? If not, you better get checked because I think your olfactory nerve has been severed.

We are not so far apart that I deserve a response such as yours.

My only point being that as long as we sell ourselves out to the world then we depend on the world. To hurt the U.S. all you have to do is hurt a country we depend on. So, don't depend on any. Lets be free once more. No dependency.

We cannot win hearts and minds. We don't even begin to understand the hearts and minds of Muslims. We refuse to understand. We refuse to learn. To change the enemy means to understand the enemy. Understanding the enemy is called "bigotry". We have moved away from sense and now "feelings and emotions" guide our brains. Apparently the enemy is such a horrible creature that when we describe it, hatred and bigotry the only response to reality. It's kind of like describing "Shit". You can't make a good description that will lead to love.... :)

artiel

Quote: Originally posted by Stonewall
We are not so far apart that I deserve a response such as yours.

My only point being that as long as we sell ourselves out to the world then we depend on the world. To hurt the U.S. all you have to do is hurt a country we depend on. So, don't depend on any. Lets be free once more. No dependency.

We cannot win hearts and minds. We don't even begin to understand the hearts and minds of Muslims. We refuse to understand. We refuse to learn. To change the enemy means to understand the enemy. Understanding the enemy is called "bigotry". We have moved away from sense and now "feelings and emotions" guide our brains. Apparently the enemy is such a horrible creature that when we describe it, hatred and bigotry the only response to reality. It's kind of like describing "Shit". You can't make a good description that will lead to love.... :)

To identify an enemy is to give that enemy a greater level of importance than if such a designation was not given. I know the panicky public believes that if you leave the rest of the world (including muslims) to their own devices, then they will eventually storm the fortress and kill as many americans as they can. I believe that this is a self-important ideology that only Americans possess. We have become the paranoid King, afraid to leave the house for fear that he will be assassinated, but feels that the only response is to rule with an iron fist. Such a king should not be surprised when his countrymen want to overthrow him.

America IS the king, and we need to rule with a humble graciousness and respect for human life so as to set an example for the rest of the world.

Having no dependency would be great, but we are taking no steps now to go in that direction. We are going in the opposite direction.

Stonewall

Quote: Originally posted by artiel
To identify an enemy is to give that enemy a greater level of importance than if such a designation was not given. I know the panicky public believes that if you leave the rest of the world (including muslims) to their own devices, then they will eventually storm the fortress and kill as many americans as they can. I believe that this is a self-important ideology that only Americans possess. We have become the paranoid King, afraid to leave the house for fear that he will be assassinated, but feels that the only response is to rule with an iron fist. Such a king should not be surprised when his countrymen want to overthrow him.

America IS the king, and we need to rule with a humble graciousness and respect for human life so as to set an example for the rest of the world.

Having no dependency would be great, but we are taking no steps now to go in that direction. We are going in the opposite direction.

If that is your view, that we are the "King". Then I suggest you buy a lot of duct tape and plastic. Maybe even some tin foil.

:)

artiel

Quote: Originally posted by Stonewall
If that is your view, that we are the "King". Then I suggest you buy a lot of duct tape and plastic. Maybe even some tin foil.

:)

If you are insinuating that I am crazy for thinking we are the king, then we clearly have different views of the way that the world functions.

ArivacaCharlie

Quote: Originally posted by artiel
NEW YORK (AP) - Democrat John Edwards Wednesday repudiated the notion that there is a “global war on terror,” calling it an ideological doctrine advanced by the Bush administration that has strained American military resources and emboldened terrorists.

In a defense policy speech he planned to deliver at the Council on Foreign Relations, Edwards called the war on terror a “bumper sticker” slogan Bush had used to justify everything from abuses at the Abu Ghraib prison to the invasion of Iraq.

“We need a post-Bush, post-9/11, post-Iraq military that is mission focused on protecting Americans from 21st century threats, not misused for discredited ideological purposes,” Edwards said in remarks prepared for delivery. “By framing this as a war, we have walked right into the trap the terrorists have set—that we are engaged in some kind of clash of civilizations and a war on Islam.”

Edwards is another political fucknut. There IS a war on terror but it's being fought stupidly by the Bush Administration and the right wing Christians. We're taking a "we're right, you'r wrong" approach with the Middle East and that's only stirring the pot.
We need to try to make political compromises. It probably wouldn't take much in order to talk the middle eastern countries into turning over binLaden if we weren't over there trying to run their lives "with God on our side."
We need the Islamic world to think of us as a partner and not an enemy.

ArivacaCharlie

The Al Qaeda propaganda hardly was found outside of Afghanistan until we went to Iraq. It is our presence that is fueling Al Qaeda now.
I've never been considered a liberal and I find it totally repulsive that the so-called conservatives are becoming so Fascistly right-wing that the "liberals" are starting to sound more like TRUE conservatives.
Rid the Republican Party of Bush and Co (and any Republican fudge-packer who is afraid to stand up against them) and you can begin the job of saving conservative politics as well as our global respect.

ArivacaCharlie

Quote: Originally posted by NeoConvict
America is beloved and the actions of President Bush will soon be shown to be the actions that unite the entire world.

Woah! Do you even see what's happening in the world???
This is absolutely the most retarded statement I've ever seen....unless you're saying that the actions of President Bush will "unite the entire world" AGAINST us.

NeoConvict

Quote: Originally posted by ArivacaCharlie
Woah! Do you even see what's happening in the world???
This is absolutely the most retarded statement I've ever seen....unless you're saying that the actions of President Bush will "unite the entire world" AGAINST us.

I am tired of liberals criticizing the honorable President Bush. If you criticize our government, you hate America and are only helping the terrorists to achieve their goal. We would all be Muslim soon if people like you ran this country. Fortunately, President Bush is making sure that we will all meet our maker soon and know his greatness.

Stonewall

Quote: Originally posted by artiel
If you are insinuating that I am crazy for thinking we are the king, then we clearly have different views of the way that the world functions.

I don't believe you are crazy.

Lets look at your post again...

The enemy has been identified, long ago. During the 1990's. Again after 9/11. We cannot change that.

I do not believe that if we leave the rest of the world, including Muslims, to their own devices they will then storm "Fortress America".

The deal is this, your theory only works if everyone goes along with it. Everyone supports our agenda. When our agenda is battled then we notice another agenda. Islam has another agenda and we stand in the way of that. Thus we must be moved out of the way or destroyed so that their agenda can be pursued.

We have to ask ourselves if our agenda is so worth it that we would rather be destroyed than give it up.

If we pull back from the world then the world will have to deal with different agenda's. Like India and Pakistan are doing. A battle. We are blamed for that situation. If we just did not support India then Pakistan would prevail. If we just did not support Israel than Arabs would prevail. If we had not thrown an arms embargo on the former Yugoslavia, than Muslims would have prevailed and with less cost, so they say. We are the main enemy supporting a million smaller ones. We are the Great Satan preventing Islam's domination in these various conflicts.

It's not that these battles would stop or that Muslims would prevail, but they never will if we exist. Certainly in our current form. If we pull back then these conflicts will expand and become worse, but it will not involve us. It's gonna happen anyway. Chechnya and Palestine are the same. It's the same war. The Philippines and Kashmir the same war. It's the same ideology fighting different enemies all on the edges of the Islamic world, and within the Islamic world. Just pull out a map and conflict exists everywhere that Islam touches another civilization, non-Muslim. All around the edges of the Islamic world. From Europe to Asia and Africa, and beyond. Wherever Muslims begin to gain a good size population versus the others population. That's just history and just the way it is. Deny it or believe it. It's not gonna change. It never has.

We need to recognize these things and put a policy in place that is not fantasy-based.

artiel

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