| m0tleyfan |
evolution of atheist's thoughts on jesus
after the resurrection of christ as time went on some group of people we now call atheist's would say there was no jesus christ the man never lived he was made up by the writers of the bible then documents were found proving that a man we know as jesus but really known as yoshua jesus is greek while yoshua is hebrew.once the proof came out that jesus was a real man the atheist's changed their point of view to say ok maybe he did live but he did not die on a cross until writings from jewish historian josephus were found now keep in mind that josephus was not a follower of christ he was a first century orthodox jew.now atheist's say ok maybe he did die on the cross but he's not the son of god.and i'll tell you the only thing that can really prove that is faith |
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| Halcyon |
God never existed
And Jesus was a charismatic speaker who learned to do magic tricks to fool people into thinking he was the son of God. |
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| m0tleyfan |
| did you read the blog? thats the story now but there was a point when atheist's said there never was a jesus see how the stories change.there is proof that the universe was created by someone |
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| Halcyon |
Quote: Originally posted by m0tleyfan
did you read the blog? thats the story now but there was a point when atheist's said there never was a jesus see how the stories change.there is proof that the universe was created by someone |
Why do you think I follow what anyone believes? I have my own beliefs... |
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| m0tleyfan |
| ok what are your beliefs? |
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| Reverend Tyler |
| Quote: once the proof came out that jesus was a real man |
:lol:
there is no proof that Jesus was a real man...the closest confirmation would be Jewish historian Josephus talking about the earliest Christians some 40-60 years after what would have been the death of Jesus, by saying the followed the teachings of a man named Jesus Christ...but he is taking them at their word, again many, many years later.
Im not even necessarily of the opinion that Jesus never existed, but dont run your fucking mouth about "proof" when it doesn't exist. |
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| m0tleyfan |
| josephus lived in jesus's lifetime and was not a follower of jesus. |
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| Halcyon |
Quote: Originally posted by m0tleyfan
ok what are your beliefs? |
I told you in my first post in this thread |
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| johnsonrod |
I thought his existence was proven. Didn't they find his thumb or something?
Or was it his skull? |
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| Reverend Tyler |
Quote: Originally posted by m0tleyfan
josephus lived in jesus's lifetime and was not a follower of jesus. |
because he was like 70 when he wrote a fucking sentence about followers of him...he did not meet jesus or have any collaboration to his actual existence.
The Romans kept impeccable records of everybody they had a problem with...Did Jesus not cause enough trouble to warrant a mention? |
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| JTProcess |
Quote: Originally posted by Halcyon
God never existed
And Jesus was a charismatic speaker who learned to do magic tricks to fool people into thinking he was the son of God. |
I know you're just trying to piss booy off... but I honestly believe the point that a great philosopher like Jesus Christ was trying to make was that he IS the song of god... and we are ALL the sons and daughters of god and should treat each other as such... (i.e. golden rule)
but hey... what do I know? |
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| Halcyon |
Quote: Originally posted by JTProcess
I know you're just trying to piss booy off... but I honestly believe the point that a great philosopher like Jesus Christ was trying to make was that he IS the song of god... and we are ALL the sons and daughters of god and should treat each other as such... (i.e. golden rule)
but hey... what do I know? |
I don't try to pretend to know what his underlying message was... I think he was a charismatic speaker who knew some parlour tricks, like turning water to wine, sticks into snakes, etc. to get his point across... plain and simple |
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| Reverend Tyler |
or maybe those should be looked at as parables to something else...such as ...
only the welathy could receive communion, whereas the peasants would be able to receive baptism...so wheen the peasants came to be baptized, Jesus surprised them by giving them communion instead - effectively turning water into wine for them.
"walking on water" was a term used to describe a high priest, making fun of their supposed superiority...that they "walk on water" ...while waiting for a high prist to perform a ceremony, Jesus came in as the High Priest himself "walking on water" ..in other words pissing off everybody by proclaiming himself a high priest... |
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| SiriuSternFan1 |
Quote: Originally posted by m0tleyfan
evolution of atheist's thoughts on jesus
after the resurrection of christ as time went on some group of people we now call atheist's would say there was no jesus christ the man never lived he was made up by the writers of the bible then documents were found proving that a man we know as jesus but really known as yoshua jesus is greek while yoshua is hebrew.once the proof came out that jesus was a real man the atheist's changed their point of view to say ok maybe he did live but he did not die on a cross until writings from jewish historian josephus were found now keep in mind that josephus was not a follower of christ he was a first century orthodox jew.now atheist's say ok maybe he did die on the cross but he's not the son of god.and i'll tell you the only thing that can really prove that is faith |
I appreciate you're belief's...Im not religious but I was raised Lutheran...As I grow older my faith has weakened but I think the athiests just have a closed mind and might be sorry some day... |
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| tourette_ticker |
Quote: Originally posted by m0tleyfan
did you read the blog? thats the story now but there was a point when atheist's said there never was a jesus see how the stories change.there is proof that the universe was created by someone |
Please provide contemporary proof of the existence of Jesus. It shouldn't be tough, the Romans were meticulous record keepers. We know, for example, that John the Baptist existed as did Pontius Pilot. No evidence of this JC guy though. |
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| tourette_ticker |
Quote: Originally posted by SiriuSternFan1
I appreciate you're belief's...Im not religious but I was raised Lutheran...As I grow older my faith has weakened but I think the athiests just have a closed mind and might be sorry some day... |
I find religious folks are much more closed minded than atheists. |
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| Halcyon |
Quote: Originally posted by tourette_ticker
I find religious folks are much more closed minded than atheists. |
And they're certainly more forceful about shoving it down your throat than atheists are. |
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| harley-davidson |
| Quote: I find religious folks are much more closed minded than atheists. |
This is one group that the description " close minded " don't even scratch the surface
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| nikkyo |
Quote: Originally posted by m0tleyfan
evolution of atheist's thoughts on jesus
after the resurrection of christ as time went on some group of people we now call atheist's would say there was no jesus christ the man never lived he was made up by the writers of the bible then documents were found proving that a man we know as jesus but really known as yoshua jesus is greek while yoshua is hebrew.once the proof came out that jesus was a real man the atheist's changed their point of view to say ok maybe he did live but he did not die on a cross until writings from jewish historian josephus were found now keep in mind that josephus was not a follower of christ he was a first century orthodox jew.now atheist's say ok maybe he did die on the cross but he's not the son of god.and i'll tell you the only thing that can really prove that is faith |
In an effort to honor your request for feedback, I offer my thought for your consideration....punctuation |
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| m0tleyfan |
| TOURETTE your wrong.for example i'm a baptist yet i have no problem with other peoples beliefs.my exgirlfriend is a pegan.i have dated jewish females too.atheists are the ultimate in close-mindedness,i believe in jesus as lord,but i might be wrong but i know there is a god.atheists believe in nothing,so whats more closd minded? |
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| tourette_ticker |
Quote: Originally posted by m0tleyfan
TOURETTE your wrong.for example i'm a baptist yet i have no problem with other peoples beliefs.my exgirlfriend is a pegan.i have dated jewish females too.atheists are the ultimate in close-mindedness,i believe in jesus as lord,but i might be wrong but i know there is a god.atheists believe in nothing,so whats more closd minded? |
As an atheist I am open to anything that you can provide proof for. Are you willing to accept that there may not be a god? Are you willing to accept that you may be worshiping the wrong god? Why are many Christians so opposed to evolution when it is as much a FACT as gravity? Is that open minded?
If you can show some evidence (rational evidence) of the existence of Gawd, I am willing to look and accept if it is irrefutable. I don't think that JC was a real person, but I am willing to accept he did exist if you can show proof. Are you opened to the possibility that he didn't exist?
My mind is closed to anything you want me to accept on your say so, but opened to ANYTHING you can provide evidence for. Can you say the same?
If you can show some evidence (rational evidence) of the existance of Gawd, I am willing to look and accept if it is irrefutable. I don't think that JC was a real person, |
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| Halcyon |
Quote: Originally posted by tourette_ticker
As an atheist I am open to anything that you can provide proof for. Are you willing to accept that there may not be a god? Are you willing to accept that you may be worshiping the wrong god? Why are many Christians so opposed to evolution when it is as much a FACT as gravity? Is that open minded?
My mind is closed to anything you want me to accept on your say so, but opened to ANYTHING you can provide evidence for. Can you say the same? |
Asking for proof that God exists, is like asking for the Iraq war to produce results.....They're both steeped in blind faith. |
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| tourette_ticker |
Quote: Originally posted by Halcyon
Asking for proof that God exists, is like asking for the Iraq war to produce results.....They're both steeped in blind faith. |
At least with Iraq we can see results and make decisions. Gawd gives us no such luxury. |
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| Halcyon |
Quote: Originally posted by tourette_ticker
At least with Iraq we can see results and make decisions. Gawd gives us no such luxury. |
People who believe in GOD, must also believe in the tooth fairy and the easter bunny |
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| tourette_ticker |
Quote: Originally posted by Halcyon
People who believe in GOD, must also believe in the tooth fairy and the easter bunny |
There is more evidence for both of them then for Gawd. As a child I remember getting money for my teeth and treats on Easter. Gawd never gave me anything /johnny frado voice/ that fucking fucker /johnny frado voice/ |
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| Halcyon |
Quote: Originally posted by tourette_ticker
There is more evidence for both of them then for Gawd. As a child I remember getting money for my teeth and treats on Easter. Gawd never gave me anything /johnny frado voice/ that fucking fucker /johnny frado voice/ |
:lol:
True enough... at least when you're a kid there's more "evidence" of the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy.... even if your parents provided the evidence... you never could tell as a kid. |
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| m0tleyfan |
| if you look back into the old testament you can find prophecy of jesus and that was many many years before he lived |
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| Halcyon |
Quote: Originally posted by m0tleyfan
if you look back into the old testament you can find prophecy of jesus and that was many many years before he lived |
Prophecy? Can you prove God talked to these people and told them to write it down?
Or rather is it the work of a philosopher of the time who understood that using multiple gods such as the egyptians and romans was beginning to lose faith and that a new 'religion' needed to be established to try and reign in the 'pagans' who had lost their faith with such multi-god religions?
Your tired, and you can't possibly defend this position?
What's more likely? God told him to do it? Or man in his own infinite wisdom came up with a plan to bring people together through a single entity?
What's more likely? Zeus and his gods actually were around? Or God is actually around?
Please think hard, Egyptian theology and Roman theology were around way before Christ and Christian theology. |
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| m0tleyfan |
| ok so your saying some philosopher wrote it down ok,but how do you explain jesus fulfilling every prophecy? |
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| Halcyon |
Quote: Originally posted by m0tleyfan
ok so your saying some philosopher wrote it down ok,but how do you explain jesus fulfilling every prophecy? |
Which prophecy are you talking about? |
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| m0tleyfan |
| all of them wait i'll find some online |
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| m0tleyfan |
Prophecies of the Old Testament
Fulfilled in Jesus Christ
1,093 rophecies of the OT Fulfilled in Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah, and His church
50 Specific Prophecies Fulfilled in Jesus of Nazareth
The Jewish Mystery
The Messiah, the Christ in Greek
Links
Prophecies of the OT Fulfilled in Jesus Christ of Nazareth:
There have been described in the Old Testament 300 prophecies of the first coming of the Messiah and 500 of the second coming, all of then made hundreds of years before the birth of Jesus and fulfilled to the letter in Jesus Christ, the Messiah.
George Heron, a French mathematician, calculated that the odds of one man fulfilling only 40 of those prophecies are 1 in 10 to the power of 157. That is a 1 followed by 157 zeros. Compare it to this; your odds on winning the state lottery are 14 followed by 6 zeros.
Another mathematician, Dr. Peter S. Ruckman, claims the odds of being fulfilled only 60 of them by the only person who claimed to be the Son of God, and who died on a "tree" on Calvary, and who rose the 3rd day are astronomical!... not just one in one trillion, but one out of ten to the 895th power. That is a one over a one followed by 895 zeros.
And still more, because every page of the Old Testament talks and prophecies and characterizes the coming of the Messiah, the Christ in Greek... so, there are actually thousands of prophecies on the coming of the Messiah, all of them fulfilled to the letter in Jesus Christ and His Church as they are shown in this site.
Philip found Nathanael and told him, "We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote--Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph. (Jn.1:45)
If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me (Jn.5:46).
And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself. (Lk.24:27)
He said to them, This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms. (Lk.24:44).
He told them, This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, (Lk.24:46).
Prophecies and types of each book of the Bible fulfilled in Jesus Christ and His Church, a total of 1,093
92 Prophecies of the Psalms fulfilled in Jesus Christ
121 Prophecies of Isaiah fulfilled in Jesus Christ
Here are just 50 of those thousand Prophecies:
Ancestors:
1- The "seed of a woman": Genesis 3:15.... Galatians 4:4.
Jesus was born of Virgin Mary without any man involved in His conception (Is.7:14, Mat.1:23, Lk.1:27).
- Gen.3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.
- Gal.4:4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law. (Luk.2:7; Rev.12:5)
2- Descendent of Abraham: Genesis 12:3, 18:18.... Acts 3:25, Matthew 1:1.
- Gen. 18:18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. (Gen. 12:3)
- Act. 3:25 And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, "Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed." (Mt.1:1; Lk.3:34)
3- Descendent of Isaac: Gen.17:19, Luc.3:34.
- Gen.17:19 Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him."
-Mt.1:2 Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers. (Lk.3:34)
4- Descendent of Jacob: Numbers 24:17...... Luke 3:34, Matt.1:2.
- Num.24:17 I see him, but not now; I behold him, but not near. A star will come out of Jacob; a scepter will rise out of Israel. He will crush the foreheads of Moab, the skulls of all the sons of Sheth.
- Lk.3:34 The son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor. (Mt.1:2)
5-- From the Tribe of Judah: Genesis 49:10, Luke 3:33.
- Gen.49:10 The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is his.
- Lk.3:33 The son of Amminadab, the son of Ram, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah. (Mt.1:2-3)
6- Hair of the Throne of David: Isaiah 9:7.... Luke 1:32-33.
- Isa.9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this. (Isa.11:1-5; 2Sam.7:13)
- Luk.1:32-33: He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end." (Mt.1:1, 1:6)
Birth and Childhood:
7- Born in Bethlehem: Micah 5:2.... Matthew 2:1.... Luke 2:4-7.
- Mic.5:2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from ancient times.
- Mt.2:1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem. (Lk.2:4-7)
8- To be born of a Virgin: Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:18.... Luke 1:26-35.
- Isa.7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
- Mt.1:18 This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: his mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. (Lk.1:26-35)
9- Time of his birth: Daniel 9:25.... Luke 2:1:
- Dan.9:25 Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven "sevens" and sixty two "sevens." It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.
- Lk 2:1-2 In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world. (This was the first census that took place while Quirinius was the governor of Syria.) (Lk 2:3-7)
- Mat.2:1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem
10- Slaughter of the Innocent children: Jeremiah 31:15.... Matthew 2:16-18.
- Jer.31:15 This is what the Lord says: "A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because her children are no more."
- Mt.2:16 When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. (Mt 2:16-18)
11- Flight to Egypt: Hosea 11:1.... Matthew 2:14-15.
- Hos.11:1 When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son
- Mt.2:14 So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt. (Mt 2:15)
12- He shall be called a Nazarene: Judges 13:5.... Matthew 2:23.
- Jud.13:5 for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God
- Mt.2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene
Passion:
13- Triumphal entry in Jerusalem on a donkey: Zechariah 9:9.... John 12:13-14.
- Zec.9:9 Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey. (Isa.62:11)
- Jn.12:13-14 They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting, "Hosanna!" "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!" "Blessed is the King of Israel!" Jesus found a young donkey and sat upon it, as it is written. (Mt.21:1-11; Jn.12:12, Mk.11:7-9.)
14- Entry through the "Golden Gate", that shall be shut for ever after his entrance: Ezekiel 44:1-2.... Mark 11:7-8.
On Palm Sunday Jesus entered Jerusalem through the Golden Gate. When you go to Jerusalem look at the Golden Gate, it is shut with stone and cement, and with a Muslim cemetery in its front, through which a Jewish Messiah will never pass.
- Ez.44:1-2 Then the man brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, the one facing east, and it was shut. 2 The LORD said to me, "This gate is to remain shut. It must not be opened; no one may enter through it. It is to remain shut because the LORD , the God of Israel, has entered through it.
- Mk.11:7-8 When they brought the colt to Jesus and threw their cloaks over it, he sat on it. Many people spread their cloaks on the road, while others spread branches they had cut in the fields.
15- Betrayed by a friend, for 30 pieces of silver: Zechariah 11:12, Psalm 41:9... Mark 14:10, Matthew 26:14-15.
- Ps.41:9 Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me.
- Mk.14:10 Then Judas Iscariot, one of the Twelve, went to the chief priests to betray Jesus to them. (Mt.26:14-16; Mk.14:43-45)
- Zec.11:12 I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. (Zec.11:13)
- Mt.26:15 And asked, "What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?" So they counted out for him thirty silver coins. (Mt 27:3-10)
16- Money to be returned for a potter's field: Zechariah 11:13.... Matthew 27:6-7.
- Zec.11:13 And the Lord said to me, "Throw it to the potter"- the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord to the potter.
- Mt.27:6-7 The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money." So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners. (Mt.27:3-5,8-10)
17- Judas's position to be taken by another: Psalm 109:7-8.... Acts 1:18-20.
- Ps.109:7-8 When he is tried, let him be found guilty, and may his prayers condemn him. May his days be few; may another take his place of leadership
- Act.1:18-20 (With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.) "For, " said Peter, "It is written in the book of Psalms, "'May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,' and, "'May another take his place of leadership.'" (Ac 1:16-17)
18- Accused by false witnesses: Psalms .27:12, 35:11.... Mt 26:60-61, Mk.14:57.
- Ps.27:12 Do not turn me over to the desire of my foes, for false witnesses rise up against me, breathing out violence. (Ps.35:11)
- Mt.26:60-61 But they did not find any, though many false witnesses came forward. Finally two men came forward and declared, "This fellow said, 'I am able to destroy the temple of God and rebuild it in three days.'"
19- Silent to accusations: Isaiah 53:7.... Matthew 26:62-63, Mark.15:4-5.
- Isa.53:7 He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. (Ps.38:13-14)
- Mt 26:62-63 Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, "Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?" But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God!" (Mt 27:12-14, Mk.15:4-5)
20 - Spat and struck: Isaiah 50:6, Matthew 26:67.
- Isa.50:6 I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting.
- Mk.14:65 Then some began to spit at him; they blindfolded him struck him with their fists, and said, "Prophesy!" And the guards took him and beat him. (Mt.26:27, Mk.15:17; Jn 19:1-3; 18:22)
21- Hated without reason: Psalms 69:4, 35:19, 109:3-5.... John.15:24-25.
- Ps 69:4 Those who hate me without reason outnumber the hairs of my head; many are my enemies without cause, those who seek to destroy me. I am forced to restore what I did not steal. (Ps.35:19, 109:3-5)
- Jn.15:23-25 He who hates me hates my Father as well. If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: "They hated me without reason."
22- Soldiers divided his garments and gambled for his clothing: Psalm 22:18... Matt.27:35 (2 Prophecies)
- Ps 22:18 They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.
- Mt.27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots (Mk.15:24).
23- Crucified, "pierced through hands and feet": Zechariah 12:10, Psalm 22:16.... Matthew 27:35, John 20:27.
- Ps.22:16 Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. (Zec.12:10)
- Mt.27:35 And they crucified him.
- Jn. 20:25-26 Now Thomas (called Didymus)... he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it." (Jn.19:37, 20:27)
24- Crucified with malefactors: Isaiah 53:12.... Mark 15:27-28.
- Isa.53:12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
- Mt 27:38 Two robbers were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left. (Mk 15:27-28; Lk 23:33)
25- Agonized in Thirst: Psalm 22:15.... John 19:28.
- Ps.22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
- Jn.19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
26- Given gall and vinegar: Psalm 69:21.... Matthew 27:34, 48, John 19:19.
- Ps.69:21 They put gall in my food and gave me vinegar for my thirst.
- Mat.27:34 They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink (Jn.19:29, Mat.27:48).
27- No bones broken: Psalm 34:20.... John 19:32-36.
- Ps 34:20 He protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken. (Ex 12:46)
- Jn 19:33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
28- His side pierced: Zechariah 12:10.... John 19:34.
- Zec.12:10 They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.
- Jn 19:34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
29- Deserted by God: Psalm 22:1.... Matthew 27:46.
- Ps.22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
- Mat.27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
30- Vicarious Sacrifice: Isaiah 53:4-5, 6, 12.... Matthew 8:16-17, Romans 4:25, 5:6-8, 1 Corinthians 15:3.
- Isa.53:4-5 Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. (Is. 53:6, 12)
- Mt.8:16-17 When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick. This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: "He took up our infirmities and carried our diseases." (Ro 4:25, 5:6-8, 1Cor 15:3)
31- Buried with the rich: Isaiah 53:9, Matthew 27:57-60.
- Isa.53:9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.
- Mt.27:57-60 As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus' body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away
32- Deserted by his followers: Zechariah 13:7.... Mark 14:27.
- Zec.13:7 smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
- Mk.14:27 And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.
33- Time of his death: Daniel 9:25.... Luke 2:1, Matthew 2:1:
- Doing the proper computations, the Messiah was supposed to die on April 3, of the year 33 AC (Open Bible pag.833)
34- Resurrection of Jesus: Hosea 6:2, Psalms 16:10, 49:15..... Luke 24:6-7, Mark.16:6-7.
- Hos.6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
- Lk.24:6-7 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.
35- Other dead raised with Him: Isaiah 26:19, Ezekiel 37:7-10..... Matthew 27:52-53.
- Isa.26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
- Ez.37:7-10 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
- Mat.27:52-53 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
36- Ascension to Heaven: Psalms 68:18, 24:3.....Lk 24:50-51, Acts 1:11, Mk.16:19.
- Ps.68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.
- Ps.24:3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?
- Lk 24:50-51 When he had led them out to the vicinity of Bethany, he lifted up his hands and blessed them. While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven
- Act.1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
37- Christ at the Right hand of the Father: Psalm 110:1..... Hebrews 1:2,3.
- Ps.110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
- Heb.1:2,3 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Ministry:
38- The way prepared by John the Baptist: Isaiah 40:3,5.... John 1:23, Luke 3:3-6.
- Isa.40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
- Jn.1:23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Isaiah
39- Preceded by a forerunner: Mal.3:1, Luk.7:24-27.
40- Preceded by Elijah: Mal.4:5-6, Matt.11:13-14.
41- Declared the Son of God: Ps.2:7, Matt.3:17.
42- Galilean Ministry: Is.9:1-2, Matt.4:13-16.
43- Speaks in Parables: Ps.78:2-4, Matt.13:34-35.
44- A Prophet: Deut.18:15, Jn.6:14, Acts 3:20-22.
45- Priest after the Order of Melchizedek: Ps.110:4, Heb.5:5-6.
46- To bind up the brokenhearted: Is.61:1-2, Luk.4:18-19.
47- Rejected by his own people, the Jews: Is.53:3, John 1:11.
48- Not believed: Is.53:1, John 12:37.
49- Adored by infants: Ps.8:2, Matt.21:15--16.
50- Anointed and eternal: Ps.45:6-7, Heb.1:8-12.
The Jewish Mystery:
It is puzzling to consider why some Jews do not recognize Jesus as the long promised and awaited Messiah, with so many prophecies of the Scriptures fulfilled to the letter in Jesus of Nazareth...
... One reason is that the Scriptures make 300 prophecies of the "First Coming of the Messiah", as the suffering servant of Is.53, but make 500 prophecies about the "Second Coming of the Messiah", the triumphal King of Zach.14... to the point that some rabbis talk about two Messiah, and for most Jews, the "triumphant one" is the Messiah they were expecting...
... The Jews did not kill Jesus, the Roman soldiers did, under the command of a Roman Governor, Pontius Pilate... however the "real killers" of Jesus are you and I, because each time we sin, "we crucify the Son of God for ourselves holding him up to mockery" (Hebrews 6:6)...
... The Jews, and you and I, were expecting a Messiah to bring us the kingdom of this world, but Jesus offers us something infinitely bigger, the Kingdom of Heaven... and for it we shout "crucify him"!... we expected a boss, and Jesus is only a God. We wanted swords, and Jesus gives us palms. We were longing to be bosses, but Jesus orders us to love. We were expecting to be victorious, with honors, and Jesus commands us to forgive and to be humble... and for it, as a criminal of high treason, we shout "crucify him"!...
The Messiah, Christ in Greek
The "Messiah" is an idea and hope that runs through every page of the Holy Scriptures... with 300 prophecies about his "First Coming", and 500 about his "Second Coming"... announcing his character, his time of coming, the type and details of his church... and the Messiah is the core of the heart of every Jew... He was promised to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David... he shall save Israel and the whole world!...
There have been many who claimed to be the Messiah... the one who "will establish the throne of God's Kingdom for ever" (Psa.12).
"Jesus of Nazareth", was one of those who claimed to be the Messiah... racially and religiously Jesus was born, lived, and died a loyal Jew. He at all times observed the Jewish religious ceremonies rigorously. His first commandment was a direct quotation of the "Schema", in Debt.6: "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength" (Mar.12:29-30).
Without any question, Jesus is the most famous and influential person in the history of the human race... He never wrote a book, but millions of books have been written on him... He owned no property, won no medals, never held any political or religious office, commanded no army... Yet no person in history has had such an influence on the human race. Even the present year is dated from his birth.
He said that he had come not to destroy, but to fulfill the Jewish Laws. He announced his purpose in Luk.4 with the words of Is.61:1-2: "The Lord anointed me to preach good tidings to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind.
Jesus' reception, During his life was a stormy one: The multitudes flocked to him, and many of them acknowledge him as the Son of God and the long-awaited Messiah (Christ). But the powerful forces in the Jewish congregation, Pharisees and Sadducees, jealous of his popularity, incensed by his denunciation of some of them, and bitterly critical of his disregard for formalism, his willingness to violate some of the minor laws, and very specially for his heretical claim that he was the Son of God, the Messiah, repudiated him, and conspired to kill him... their final conspiracy was not after doing something bad, but after resurrecting a 4 days death, Lazarus! (Jn.12)... they were blind!, they could not see that he was really God... and eventually they saw him crucified, fulfilling the scriptures, as he had announced 3 times before... and after learning of his resurrection, they persecuted his followers!...
"Jesus of Nazareth":
Born in Bethlehem, from the Tribe of Judah and the house of David...
... without question, the most famous and influential person in the history of the human race, the greatest asset of Israel...
... the "lamb of God" who takes away the sins of the world, of Isaiah 53 and John 1...
... the long-awaited Messiah (the Christ, in Greek)... the only one God incarnated!
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| tourette_ticker |
Quote: Originally posted by m0tleyfan
ok so your saying some philosopher wrote it down ok,but how do you explain jesus fulfilling every prophecy? |
Seeing as how he probably didn't exist, they could just write anything they wanted. Sure he fulfilled every prophecy. Did you have anything specific you want to bring up? |
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| m0tleyfan |
| oh my gosh just read it it's all there and yes there is proof he lived id post it but you would not read that either you want me to prove things fine atleast read what i post |
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| tourette_ticker |
Quote: Originally posted by m0tleyfan
oh my gosh just read it it's all there and yes there is proof he lived id post it but you would not read that either you want me to prove things fine atleast read what i post |
If you have proof he existed (outside the bible) you better reveal it to the world, as nobody else has ever seen it. |
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| m0tleyfan |
Josephus - An Eyewitness to Christianity
Josephus was a historian who lived from 37 A.D. to about 100 A.D. He was a member of the priestly aristocracy of the Jews, and was taken hostage by the Roman Empire in the great Jewish revolt of 66-70 A.D. Josephus spent the rest of his life in or around Rome as an advisor and historian to three emperors, Vespasian, Titus and Domitian. For centuries, the works of Josephus were more widely read in Europe than any book other than the Bible. They are invaluable sources of eyewitness testimony to the development of Western civilization, including the foundation and growth of Christianity in the 1st Century.
Josephus - Biblical Accounts Outside the Bible
Josephus mentions New Testament events and people in some of his works. For many skeptics, this is viewed as significant evidence against the myth and legend theories that plague early Christianity. Here are some excerpts:
Josephus mentions Jesus in Antiquities, Book 18, chapter 3, paragraph 3 (this paragraph is so phenomenal, that scholars now debate the authenticity of some of the more “favorable” portions of this text):
“Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.”
Josephus mentions John the Baptist and Herod in Antiquities, Book 18, chapter 5, paragraph 2: |
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| m0tleyfan |
Does God Exist - Things to Consider
Once you're ready to ask the question, "does God exist?" here are a few observations to consider as you begin your search for an objective answer:
Discoveries in astronomy have shown beyond a reasonable doubt that the universe did, in fact, have a beginning. There was a single moment of creation.
Advances in molecular biology have revealed vast amounts of information encoded in each and every living cell, and molecular biologists have discovered thousands upon thousands of exquisitely designed machines at the molecular level. Information requires intelligence and design requires a designer.
Biochemists and mathematicians have calculated the odds against life arising from non-life naturally via unintelligent processes. The odds are astronomical. In fact, scientists aren't even sure if life could have evolved naturally via unintelligent processes. If life did not arise by chance, how did it arise?
The universe is ordered by natural laws. Where did these laws come from and what purpose do they serve?
Philosophers agree that a transcendent Law Giver is the only plausible explanation for an objective moral standard. So, ask yourself if you believe in right and wrong and then ask yourself why. Who gave you your conscience? Why does it exist?
People of every race, creed, color, and culture, both men and women, young and old, wise and foolish, from the educated to the ignorant, claim to have personally experienced something of the supernatural. So what are we supposed to do with these prodigious accounts of divine healing, prophetic revelation, answered prayer, and other miraculous phenomena? Ignorance and imagination may have played a part to be sure, but is there something more?
If your curiosity has been piqued and you desire to look into this matter further, we recommend that you consider the world's assortment of so-called Holy Books. If God does exist, has He revealed Himself? And if He has revealed Himself, surely He exists...
Learn more now! |
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| Reverend Tyler |
Jospehus was born in 37 AD...AFTER CHRIST DIED!!!
how is that an eyewitness?
| Quote: “Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.” |
He is discussing the religious beliefs of the Christians...that is not fucking proof he existed. |
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| tourette_ticker |
Quote: Originally posted by Reverend Tyler
Jospehus was born in 37 AD...AFTER CHRIST DIED!!!
how is that an eyewitness?
He is discussing the religious beliefs of the Christians...that is not fucking proof he existed. |
swing and a miss. strike one. oh wait that's all he has. He's out. |
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| Halcyon |
Quote: Originally posted by tourette_ticker
swing and a miss. strike one. oh wait that's all he has. He's out. |
:funny: |
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| m0tleyfan |
| tourette notice how you bypass the other things on this page.respond to the does god exist article |
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| tourette_ticker |
Quote: Originally posted by m0tleyfan
tourette notice how you bypass the other things on this page.respond to the does god exist article |
I wasn't done with the first point yet. So you are ready to admit that there is no contemporary evidence of the existence of Jesus? |
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| Reverend Tyler |
| Quote: Philosophers agree that a transcendent Law Giver is the only plausible explanation for an objective moral standard. |
Very, very generalized, and untrue. There are many philosophers who are either atheists, or dont believe that morality is anything more than a human construct. |
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| m0tleyfan |
i found more proof that jesus lived from a few non christian sources.
Although there is overwhelming evidence that the New Testament is an accurate and trustworthy historical document, many people are still reluctant to believe what it says unless there is also some independent, non-biblical testimony that corroborates its statements. In the introduction to one of his books, F.F. Bruce tells about a Christian correspondent who was told by an agnostic friend that "apart from obscure references in Josephus and the like," there was no historical evidence for the life of Jesus outside the Bible.{1} This, he wrote to Bruce, had caused him "great concern and some little upset in [his] spiritual life."{2} He concludes his letter by asking, "Is such collateral proof available, and if not, are there reasons for the lack of it?"{3} The answer to this question is, "Yes, such collateral proof is available," and we will be looking at some of it in this article.
Let's begin our inquiry with a passage that historian Edwin Yamauchi calls "probably the most important reference to Jesus outside the New Testament."{4} Reporting on Emperor Nero's decision to blame the Christians for the fire that had destroyed Rome in A.D. 64, the Roman historian Tacitus wrote:
Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome. . . .{5}
What all can we learn from this ancient (and rather unsympathetic) reference to Jesus and the early Christians? Notice, first, that Tacitus reports Christians derived their name from a historical person called Christus (from the Latin), or Christ. He is said to have "suffered the extreme penalty," obviously alluding to the Roman method of execution known as crucifixion. This is said to have occurred during the reign of Tiberius and by the sentence of Pontius Pilatus. This confirms much of what the Gospels tell us about the death of Jesus.
But what are we to make of Tacitus' rather enigmatic statement that Christ's death briefly checked "a most mischievous superstition," which subsequently arose not only in Judaea, but also in Rome? One historian suggests that Tacitus is here "bearing indirect . . . testimony to the conviction of the early church that the Christ who had been crucified had risen from the grave."{6} While this interpretation is admittedly speculative, it does help explain the otherwise bizarre occurrence of a rapidly growing religion based on the worship of a man who had been crucified as a criminal.{7} How else might one explain that?
Evidence from Pliny the Younger
Another important source of evidence about Jesus and early Christianity can be found in the letters of Pliny the Younger to Emperor Trajan. Pliny was the Roman governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. In one of his letters, dated around A.D. 112, he asks Trajan's advice about the appropriate way to conduct legal proceedings against those accused of being Christians.{8} Pliny says that he needed to consult the emperor about this issue because a great multitude of every age, class, and sex stood accused of Christianity.{9}
At one point in his letter, Pliny relates some of the information he has learned about these Christians:
They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food--but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.{10}
This passage provides us with a number of interesting insights into the beliefs and practices of early Christians. First, we see that Christians regularly met on a certain fixed day for worship. Second, their worship was directed to Christ, demonstrating that they firmly believed in His divinity. Furthermore, one scholar interprets Pliny's statement that hymns were sung to Christ, as to a god, as a reference to the rather distinctive fact that, "unlike other gods who were worshipped, Christ was a person who had lived on earth."{11} If this interpretation is correct, Pliny understood that Christians were worshipping an actual historical person as God! Of course, this agrees perfectly with the New Testament doctrine that Jesus was both God and man.
Not only does Pliny's letter help us understand what early Christians believed about Jesus' person, it also reveals the high esteem to which they held His teachings. For instance, Pliny notes that Christians bound themselves by a solemn oath not to violate various moral standards, which find their source in the ethical teachings of Jesus. In addition, Pliny's reference to the Christian custom of sharing a common meal likely alludes to their observance of communion and the "love feast."{12} This interpretation helps explain the Christian claim that the meal was merely food of an ordinary and innocent kind. They were attempting to counter the charge, sometimes made by non-Christians, of practicing "ritual cannibalism."{13} The Christians of that day humbly repudiated such slanderous attacks on Jesus' teachings. We must sometimes do the same today.
Evidence from Josephus
Perhaps the most remarkable reference to Jesus outside the Bible can be found in the writings of Josephus, a first century Jewish historian. On two occasions, in his Jewish Antiquities, he mentions Jesus. The second, less revealing, reference describes the condemnation of one "James" by the Jewish Sanhedrin. This James, says Josephus, was "the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ."{14} F.F. Bruce points out how this agrees with Paul's description of James in Galatians 1:19 as "the Lord's brother."{15} And Edwin Yamauchi informs us that "few scholars have questioned" that Josephus actually penned this passage.{16}
As interesting as this brief reference is, there is an earlier one, which is truly astonishing. Called the "Testimonium Flavianum," the relevant portion declares:
About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he . . . wrought surprising feats. . . . He was the Christ. When Pilate . . .condemned him to be crucified, those who had . . . come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared . . . restored to life. . . . And the tribe of Christians . . . has . . . not disappeared.{17}
Did Josephus really write this? Most scholars think the core of the passage originated with Josephus, but that it was later altered by a Christian editor, possibly between the third and fourth century A.D.{18} But why do they think it was altered? Josephus was not a Christian, and it is difficult to believe that anyone but a Christian would have made some of these statements.{19}
For instance, the claim that Jesus was a wise man seems authentic, but the qualifying phrase, "if indeed one ought to call him a man," is suspect. It implies that Jesus was more than human, and it is quite unlikely that Josephus would have said that! It is also difficult to believe he would have flatly asserted that Jesus was the Christ, especially when he later refers to Jesus as "the so-called" Christ. Finally, the claim that on the third day Jesus appeared to His disciples restored to life, inasmuch as it affirms Jesus' resurrection, is quite unlikely to come from a non-Christian!
But even if we disregard the questionable parts of this passage, we are still left with a good deal of corroborating information about the biblical Jesus. We read that he was a wise man who performed surprising feats. And although He was crucified under Pilate, His followers continued their discipleship and became known as Christians. When we combine these statements with Josephus' later reference to Jesus as "the so-called Christ," a rather detailed picture emerges which harmonizes quite well with the biblical record. It increasingly appears that the "biblical Jesus" and the "historical Jesus" are one and the same!
Evidence from the Babylonian Talmud
There are only a few clear references to Jesus in the Babylonian Talmud, a collection of Jewish rabbinical writings compiled between approximately A.D. 70-500. Given this time frame, it is naturally supposed that earlier references to Jesus are more likely to be historically reliable than later ones. In the case of the Talmud, the earliest period of compilation occurred between A.D. 70-200.{20} The most significant reference to Jesus from this period states:
On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald . . . cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy."{21}
Let's examine this passage. You may have noticed that it refers to someone named "Yeshu." So why do we think this is Jesus? Actually, "Yeshu" (or "Yeshua") is how Jesus' name is pronounced in Hebrew. But what does the passage mean by saying that Jesus "was hanged"? Doesn't the New Testament say he was crucified? Indeed it does. But the term "hanged" can function as a synonym for "crucified." For instance, Galatians 3:13 declares that Christ was "hanged", and Luke 23:39 applies this term to the criminals who were crucified with Jesus.{22} So the Talmud declares that Jesus was crucified on the eve of Passover. But what of the cry of the herald that Jesus was to be stoned? This may simply indicate what the Jewish leaders were planning to do.{23} If so, Roman involvement changed their plans!{24}
The passage also tells us why Jesus was crucified. It claims He practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy! Since this accusation comes from a rather hostile source, we should not be too surprised if Jesus is described somewhat differently than in the New Testament. But if we make allowances for this, what might such charges imply about Jesus?
Interestingly, both accusations have close parallels in the canonical gospels. For instance, the charge of sorcery is similar to the Pharisees' accusation that Jesus cast out demons "by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons."{25} But notice this: such a charge actually tends to confirm the New Testament claim that Jesus performed miraculous feats. Apparently Jesus' miracles were too well attested to deny. The only alternative was to ascribe them to sorcery! Likewise, the charge of enticing Israel to apostasy parallels Luke's account of the Jewish leaders who accused Jesus of misleading the nation with his teaching.{26} Such a charge tends to corroborate the New Testament record of Jesus' powerful teaching ministry. Thus, if read carefully, this passage from the Talmud confirms much of our knowledge about Jesus from the New Testament.
Evidence from Lucian
Lucian of Samosata was a second century Greek satirist. In one of his works, he wrote of the early Christians as follows:
The Christians . . . worship a man to this day--the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . [It] was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws.{27}
Although Lucian is jesting here at the early Christians, he does make some significant comments about their founder. For instance, he says the Christians worshipped a man, "who introduced their novel rites." And though this man's followers clearly thought quite highly of Him, He so angered many of His contemporaries with His teaching that He "was crucified on that account."
Although Lucian does not mention his name, he is clearly referring to Jesus. But what did Jesus teach to arouse such wrath? According to Lucian, he taught that all men are brothers from the moment of their conversion. That's harmless enough. But what did this conversion involve? It involved denying the Greek gods, worshipping Jesus, and living according to His teachings. It's not too difficult to imagine someone being killed for teaching that. Though Lucian doesn't say so explicitly, the Christian denial of other gods combined with their worship of Jesus implies the belief that Jesus was more than human. Since they denied other gods in order to worship Him, they apparently thought Jesus a greater God than any that Greece had to offer!
Let's summarize what we've learned about Jesus from this examination of ancient non-Christian sources. First, both Josephus and Lucian indicate that Jesus was regarded as wise. Second, Pliny, the Talmud, and Lucian imply He was a powerful and revered teacher. Third, both Josephus and the Talmud indicate He performed miraculous feats. Fourth, Tacitus, Josephus, the Talmud, and Lucian all mention that He was crucified. Tacitus and Josephus say this occurred under Pontius Pilate. And the Talmud declares it happened on the eve of Passover. Fifth, there are possible references to the Christian belief in Jesus' resurrection in both Tacitus and Josephus. Sixth, Josephus records that Jesus' followers believed He was the Christ, or Messiah. And finally, both Pliny and Lucian indicate that Christians worshipped Jesus as God!
I hope you see how this small selection of ancient non-Christian sources helps corroborate our knowledge of Jesus from the gospels. Of course, there are many ancient Christian sources of information about Jesus as well. But since the historical reliability of the canonical gospels is so well established, I invite you to read those for an authoritative "life of Jesus!" |
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| m0tleyfan |
| if you don't then why bother posting on this thread? he asked me to prove jesus lived and thats what i'm doing |
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| Reverend Tyler |
*sigh*
Quote: t."{4} Reporting on Emperor Nero's decision to blame the Christians for the fire that had destroyed Rome in A.D. 64, the Roman historian Tacitus wrote:
Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome. . . .{5} |
once again - this is well after Christ has died, and they are again only saying what the beliefs of the Christians are. The later examples are even farther away time-wise and again are talking about the Christians. Nobody is arguing that Christians did not exist. |
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| m0tleyfan |
| you pulled one little quote out why not read he whole thing? |
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| Reverend Tyler |
| I did read the whole thing..,..that was the closest to the date...Do you really want me to knock away every piece of "evidence" no matter how far away from the time? Are you gonna tell me how Constantine spoke about Jesus next saying that is proof of his existence? |
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| m0tleyfan |
| why do you call yourself reverend? i think bob leavydoing it is dumb to. |
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| tourette_ticker |
Quote: Originally posted by m0tleyfan
i found more proof that jesus lived from a few non christian sources.
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I asked for contemporary proof and you have NONE.
"...a passage that historian Edwin Yamauchi calls "probably the most important reference to Jesus outside the New Testament."..." and your most important reference is not contemporary. It came from Cornelius Tacitus
Quote: Cornelius Tacitus comes from the Greco-Roman tradition of historical writers whose purpose is as much to promote a moral agenda using rhetorical flourishes as it is to elucidate facts . In Rome, Tacitus studied oratory, including Cicero, and may have written oratorical treatises before his four best known historic/ethnographic pieces, Agricola, Germania, Historiae (Histories), and Annales (Annals).
Little is known for certain about his origins, although he is believed to have been born in France or Transalpine Gaul (about A.D. 56) into a provincial aristocratic family. We don't even know if his name was Publius or Gaius Cornelius Tacitus. He became a senator, a consul, and eventually governor of Asia. He probably lived and wrote into Hadrian's reign (117-38) and may have died in A.D. 120 . |
Not contemporary and he had an agenda.
Then: "...Another important source of evidence about Jesus and early Christianity can be found in the letters of Pliny the Younger to Emperor Trajan. Pliny was the Roman governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. In one of his letters, dated around A.D. 112 ,..."
Hardly contemporary.
Then this guy again:
"...Perhaps the most remarkable reference to Jesus outside the Bible can be found in the writings of Josephus,..." since we already did Josephus I'll pass on going over it again.
Once again do you have any CONTEMPORARY EVIDENCE of the existence of JC. I can answer for you. FUCK NO. |
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| m0tleyfan |
| yeah it came from people that lived back then.and what do you mean contemporary? how could someone that lived today prove jesus lived? |
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| Reverend Tyler |
Because Im fascinated by religion and I study it extensively - Im also not an atheist...but why does my belief in God mean that I have to blindly accept something without any facts supporting it? I dont think all religious people are stupid, but those articles you have posted are not any damn good at all. Your problem is you are too exclusive into what you look at. For example - If I was to tell you about a man who was foreseen to be the son of God who was born on December 25 to a virgin woman named "Mary"...he became a teacher, preceded by a man named "John the baptist* who was beheaded...This son of God then died for the sins of all mankind, but then rose from the dead 3 days later and ascended into Heaven. Who would you say that was? The correct answer is Osiris - from an Egyptian Mystery Cult thousands of years before Christ.
"Mary" - would be the equivalent of the Egyption Isis
"John The Baptist" - equivalent of Egyptian Anon the Baptizer |
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| tourette_ticker |
Quote: Originally posted by m0tleyfan
yeah it came from people that lived back then.and what do you mean contemporary? how could someone that lived today prove jesus lived? |
I mean somebody who saw him alive. For example there are contemporary records that show John the Baptist was real. Why none for JC? |
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| tourette_ticker |
Quote: Originally posted by Reverend Tyler
Because Im fascinated by religion and I study it extensively - Im also not an atheist...but why does my belief in God mean that I have to blindly accept something without any facts supporting it? I dont think all religious people are stupid, but those articles you have posted are not any damn good at all. Your problem is you are too exclusive into what you look at. For example - If I was to tell you about a man who was foreseen to be the son of God who was born on December 25 to a virgin woman named "Mary"...he became a teacher, preceded by a man named "John the baptist* who was beheaded...This son of God then died for the sins of all mankind, but then rose from the dead 3 days later and ascended into Heaven. Who would you say that was? The correct answer is Osiris - from an Egyptian Mystery Cult thousands of years before Christ.
"Mary" - would be the equivalent of the Egyption Isis
"John The Baptist" - equivalent of Egyptian Anon the Baptizer |
While I am a strong atheist (I don't believe in God in exactly the same way I don't believe in Zeus), I don't think religious people are stupid either. And I share you fascination with religion. In fact part of my fascination is why many very intelligent people believe in fairy tales. Then there are guys like m0tley whose belief I completely understand. |
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| m0tleyfan |
| tourette what do you have against me? |
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| tyrnightwolf |
Quote: Originally posted by Halcyon
God never existed
And Jesus was a charismatic speaker who learned to do magic tricks to fool people into thinking he was the son of God. |
There's a book along those lines by Lon Milo DuQuette called Accidental Christ. It puts an interesting spin on the whole Christianity thing, and gets you thinking. It's the guys first shot at fiction, and it's a good read right up until the end which is kind of weak. |
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| tourette_ticker |
Quote: Originally posted by m0tleyfan
tourette what do you have against me? |
Nothing. But I do have a problem with your "debating" style.
"oh my gosh just read it it's all there and yes there is proof he lived id post it but you would not read that either you want me to prove things fine atleast read what i post" irrelevant
"josephus lived in jesus's lifetime and was not a follower of jesus." false
"tourette notice how you bypass the other things on this page.respond to the does god exist article" wrong and an attemt to change the subject as you didn't respond to my point
" i just can't wait till he logs on looks at this and gives his answer how much you wanna bet he tucks his tail between his legs and just does not respond I GOT YOUR DATE HERE!" wrong and baseless claim that has nothing to do with the debate.
You see. When you add that to the fact that you post a list of "stuff" and call it proof of something with no explanation and little back up when questioned, you can be difficult to converse with. Much of what you list actually disproves your theories but you have never reviewed the scientific answers to the questions. And just reading what a religious site tells you about science does not disprove it. You (personally) need to review it objectively and see what you decide.
Science and religion do not have to be incapable. But science is generally at odds with a literal interpretation of the bible.
If you want to have a real discussion I am all for it. |
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| jetdog |
| Motley I hear Mommy calling, time for dinner, don't trip going up the stairs.... |
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| Reverend Tyler |
Quote: Originally posted by tourette_ticker
While I am a strong atheist (I don't believe in God in exactly the same way I don't believe in Zeus), I don't think religious people are stupid either. And I share you fascination with religion. In fact part of my fascination is why many very intelligent people believe in fairy tales. Then there are guys like m0tley whose belief I completely understand. |
While most Christians would call me an atheist (The Catholic Church actually defines me as one), I am a pantheist...in other words I think the Universe is God - not some outside presence who judges us when we die. However I do think theres a lot more that meets the eye when it comes to certain myths...here is a passage that better illustrates what I think all religion was at least originally intended to be..
This is from Manly P Hall's "Secret Teachings Of All Ages" page 21
http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/sta/sta04.htm
Quote: WHEN confronted with a problem involving the use of the reasoning faculties, individuals of strong intellect keep their poise, and seek to reach a solution by obtaining facts bearing upon the question. Those of immature mentality, on the other hand, when similarly confronted, are overwhelmed. While the former may be qualified to solve the riddle of their own destiny, the latter must be led like a flock of sheep and taught in simple language. They depend almost entirely upon the ministrations of the shepherd. The Apostle Paul said that these little ones must be fed with milk, but that meat is the food of strong men. Thoughtlessness is almost synonymous with childishness, while thoughtfulness is symbolic of maturity.
There are, however, but few mature minds in the world; and thus it was that the philosophic-religious doctrines of the pagans were divided to meet the needs of these two fundamental groups of human intellect--one philosophic, the other incapable of appreciating the deeper mysteries of life. To the discerning few were revealed the esoteric, or spiritual, teachings, while the unqualified many received only the literal, or exoteric, interpretations. In order to make simple the great truths of Nature and the abstract principles of natural law, the vital forces of the universe were personified, becoming the gods and goddesses of the ancient mythologies. While the ignorant multitudes brought their offerings to the altars of Priapus and Pan (deities representing the procreative energies), the wise recognized in these marble statues only symbolic concretions of great abstract truths.
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I think this is the same way with Christianity, only sadly the "Outer Mysteries" killed and burned everything for the "Inner Mysteries" until the diffrent gospels of the Gnostic Christians were found in Nag Hammadi, Egypt just last century. |
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| tourette_ticker |
Quote: Originally posted by Reverend Tyler
While most Christians would call me an atheist (The Catholic Church actually defines me as one), I am a pantheist...in other words I think the Universe is God - not some outside presence who judges us when we die. However I do think theres a lot more that meets the eye when it comes to certain myths...here is a passage that better illustrates what I think all religion was at least originally intended to be..
This is from Manly P Hall's "Secret Teachings Of All Ages" page 21
http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/sta/sta04.htm
I think this is the same way with Christianity, only sadly the "Outer Mysteries" killed and burned everything for the "Inner Mysteries" until the diffrent gospels of the Gnostic Christians were found in Nag Hammadi, Egypt just last century. |
I don't really disagree with anything in this post. And it funny to see how the church runs from the Gnostic scriptures. Of course the Gnostics knew the stories were allegory. |
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