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What Do Rudolph Giuliani And The Communist Manifesto Of Karl Marx Have In Common?
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| What Do Rudolph Giuliani And The Communist Manifesto Of Karl Marx Have In Common?
- Click HERE to go to the original thread with graphics
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| Richard Wagner |
Giuliani endorses the second plank of the Communist Manifesto, "A heavy progressive or graduated income tax."
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070707/D8Q7VUIG0.html
Giuliani Jeered for Opposing Flat Tax
Jul 7, 5:00 PM (ET)
By RON WORD
JACKSONVILLE, Fla. (AP) - Republican presidential candidate Rudy Giuliani ran into a buzz saw of opposition Saturday when he explained his opposition to a flat federal income tax.
Giuliani addressed a group of about 500 people in a standing-room only crowd at a town hall meeting at the University of North Florida, answering questions for about 30 minutes on a variety of topics from Iraq and Iran to Social Security and his plan for tax cuts.
Several dozen people jeered when Giuliani, in response to a question, said he would not be in favor of a flat tax.
"I have to study it some more," the former New York City mayor said. "I don't think a flat tax is realistic change for America. Our economy is dependent upon the way our tax system operates."
Giuliani emphasized he supported a simplified tax system and cuts in federal taxes, including elimination of the so-called death tax, but his response to the flat tax question brought some cat calls and jeers. "I have a real question whether it would be the right transition for our economy," he said.
"I am disappointed in him," said Ken Mertz of Fernandia Beach. "But he did say he would look into it."
At a news conference after his speech, Giuliani said that taxes would go down under his presidency, saying his philosophy was different from the Democrats. "They want to see them go up," he said.
Two lesser-known rivals for the Republican presidential nomination - Kansas Sen. Sam Brownback and Tommy Thompson, a former Wisconsin governor and U.S. secretary of Health and Human Services - have voiced support for a flat tax. Businessman Steve Forbes, who unsuccessfully sought the Republican presidential nomination twice, based his campaign on a flat tax. Forbes has endorsed Giuliani.
In response to another question, Giuliani warned against pulling out of Iraq, saying it would create a country run by terrorists. And he said Iran should be kept from getting nuclear weapons.
"No way, no how should Iran be a nuclear power," he said. |
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| Richard Wagner |
"Our economy is dependent upon the way our [progressive income] tax system operates."
- Rudy Giuliani |
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| Richard Wagner |
| I know there are several Rudy Giuliani supporters that post here. Please, do not be shy, defend your man's fiscal conservatism. |
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| Reverend Tyler |
| Yeah so do I. People who have a hell of a lot more money should pay more in taxes. The only way I would support a flat tax is if 1 - There could be no tax credits and 2- Capital Gains is taxed as regular income (since, ya know, it is) |
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| Richard Wagner |
| I was hoping for a response from a Giuliani apologist. |
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| DUDE-HERE |
| I WOULD BE AGAINST A FLAT TAX. SOUNDS LIKE FUN AND CHEAPER AND EASIER BUT ITS NOT..RUCH PEOPLE WILL PAY FAR LESS IN TAXES ..EVEN LESS THAN THEY ARE NOW..AND POOR PEOPLE WOULD END PAYING EVEN MORE AND HAVE LESS. |
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| Richard Wagner |
Quote: Originally posted by DUDE-HERE
I WOULD BE AGAINST A FLAT TAX. SOUNDS LIKE FUN AND CHEAPER AND EASIER BUT ITS NOT..RUCH PEOPLE WILL PAY FAR LESS IN TAXES ..EVEN LESS THAN THEY ARE NOW..AND POOR PEOPLE WOULD END PAYING EVEN MORE AND HAVE LESS. |
Please explain the logic behind your statement. |
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| Halcyon |
Quote: Originally posted by Richard Wagner
Please explain the logic behind your statement. |
You make the assumption that the logic he expressed was his own.
That was your first mistake.
You know better than that to already know this guy does nothing but parrot talking points. |
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| VacateTheWord |
Quote: Originally posted by Richard Wagner
I know there are several Rudy Giuliani supporters that post here. Please, do not be shy, defend your man's fiscal conservatism. |
Not supporting a "flat tax" does translate to a lack of fiscal conservatism. I understand that these ideas are coming from your affection for Ron Paul, although I would assume you would argue the even more radical concept of wiping out the federal income tax altogether. But anyway - what exactly are these people or yourself proposing in regards to a "flat tax?" Please be more specific, especially when it comes to how it would be collected. |
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| Richard Wagner |
Quote: Originally posted by Halcyon
You make the assumption that the logic he expressed was his own.
That was your first mistake.
You know better than that to already know this guy does nothing but parrot talking points. |
I do not assume that but I do give him the opportunity to show whether there is or is not. |
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| Richard Wagner |
Quote: Originally posted by VacateTheWord
Not supporting a "flat tax" does translate to a lack of fiscal conservatism. I understand that these ideas are coming from your affection for Ron Paul, although I would assume you would argue the even more radical concept of wiping out the federal income tax altogether. But anyway - what exactly are these people or yourself proposing in regards to a "flat tax?" Please be more specific, especially when it comes to how it would be collected. |
I am not supporting a flat tax, I am asking supporters of Rudy Giuliani to explain how the following statement is in agreement with fiscal conservatism.
"Our economy is dependent upon the way our [progressive income] tax system operates."
- Rudy Giuliani
If Rudy Giuliani actually thinks that our economy is dependent on a progressive income tax then he is either a Marxist or has not even the least understanding of economics. |
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| Halcyon |
Quote: Originally posted by Richard Wagner
I do not assume that but I do give him the opportunity to show whether there is or is not. |
Get used to disappointment. Especially in his case. |
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| VacateTheWord |
Quote: Originally posted by Richard Wagner
I am not supporting a flat tax, I am asking supporters of Rudy Giuliani to explain how the following statement is in agreement with fiscal conservatism.
"Our economy is dependent upon the way our [progressive income] tax system operates."
- Rudy Giuliani
If Rudy Giuliani actually thinks that our economy is dependent on a progressive income tax then he is either a Marxist or has not even the least understanding of economics. |
By denouncing Giuliani's support of a progressive tax system you are either supporting the flat tax mentioned in the article or the abolition of the federal income tax - you can't have it both ways.
Please explain how one cannot have a progressive tax system in place and not be a fiscal conservative (keep in mind that the latter refers to what the government spends, not collects). Also, if not a flat tax as an alternative to the current system (which does need to be changed, I would fully admit), then what do you propose? |
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| Halcyon |
Quote: Originally posted by VacateTheWord
By denouncing Giuliani's support of a progressive tax system you are either supporting the flat tax mentioned in the article or the abolition of the federal income tax - you can't have it both ways.
Please explain how one cannot have a progressive tax system in place and not be a fiscal conservative (keep in mind that the latter refers to what the government spends, not collects). Also, if not a flat tax as an alternative to the current system (which does need to be changed, I would fully admit), then what do you propose? |
Maybe if you answered Richard Wagner's question, he would then answer yours.
You seem blissfully ignorant of the fact that this thread started with someone asking people who support Guiliani to give their opinion.
All you've done is ask questions of Richard Wagner.
Maybe if you answered his questions, then you could have a valid question to ask back for him to answer.
See how discussions work? |
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| Richard Wagner |
Quote: Originally posted by VacateTheWord
By denouncing Giuliani's support of a progressive tax system you are either supporting the flat tax mentioned in the article or the abolition of the federal income tax - you can't have it both ways.
Please explain how one cannot have a progressive tax system in place and not be a fiscal conservative (keep in mind that the latter refers to what the government spends, not collects). Also, if not a flat tax as an alternative to the current system (which does need to be changed, I would fully admit), then what do you propose? |
I support abolishing the income tax and repealing the 16th Amendment.
Are you proposing that one can be a fiscal conservative by taxing high but spending low? Why would you support such a position? |
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| VacateTheWord |
Quote: Originally posted by Halcyon
Maybe if you answered Richard Wagner's question, he would then answer yours.
You seem blissfully ignorant of the fact that this thread started with someone asking people who support Guiliani to give their opinion.
All you've done is ask questions of Richard Wagner.
Maybe if you answered his questions, then you could have a valid question to ask back for him to answer.
See how discussions work? |
I was responding to what Richard Wagner bolded in the article -
"I don't think a flat tax is realistic change for America. Our economy is dependent upon the way our tax system operates."
In order to answer his question, I need to know what this group was proposing in regards to a flat tax. He has stated that he personally does not support a flat tax, but that is taking the article in a different direction. That said, I cannot defend Rudy's lack of interest in a flat tax because I don't know what his specific problems with it are. I know what mine would be, but I'm unable to read Rudy's mind.
As far as "defending his fiscal conservatism," as I already said - how the government spends the money it collects is the hallmark of fiscal conservatism, not how it goes about collecting it (if at all).
Now to be fair, Richard linked the progressive income tax with Marx's theory, which is a good point. However, I refer back to my assertion that modern fiscal conservatism has more to do with money spent, not how it is collected.
I'd be happy to answer his questions, but he needs to be more specific. How a flat tax (as bolded in the article) is approached is very important in determining if one would be for or against it. In another thread I already explained why I would object to the abolition of the federal income tax. |
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| fanbelt49 |
| someone better define fiscal conservative before this thread goes any further. |
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| Halcyon |
Quote: Originally posted by VacateTheWord
I was responding to what Richard Wagner bolded in the article -
"I don't think a flat tax is realistic change for America. Our economy is dependent upon the way our tax system operates."
In order to answer his question, I need to know what this group was proposing in regards to a flat tax. He has stated that he personally does not support a flat tax, but that is taking the article in a different direction. That said, I cannot defend Rudy's lack of interest in a flat tax because I don't know what his specific problems with it are. I know what mine would be, but I'm unable to read Rudy's mind.
As far as "defending his fiscal conservatism," as I already said - how the government spends the money it collects is the hallmark of fiscal conservatism, not how it goes about collecting it (if at all).
Now to be fair, Richard linked the progressive income tax with Marx's theory, which is a good point. However, I refer back to my assertion that modern fiscal conservatism has more to do with money spent, not how it is collected.
I'd be happy to answer his questions, but he needs to be more specific. How a flat tax (as bolded in the article) is approached is very important in determining if one would be for or against it. In another thread I already explained why I would object to the abolition of the federal income tax. |
:jj: Thanks for missing my point. I suppose I already knew this would be your response |
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| VacateTheWord |
Quote: Originally posted by Halcyon
:jj: Thanks for missing my point. I suppose I already knew this would be your response |
For the third time, if this is an issue of - if you support a progressive tax system, then you cannot be a fiscal conservative - then I disagree with Richard Wagner's definition. Simple.
The article was about a group of people who jeered when Giuliani balked at a flat tax. I'd love for someone to expand on this, not deflect from the original issue. |
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| Halcyon |
Quote: Originally posted by VacateTheWord
For the third time, if this is an issue of - if you support a progressive tax system, then you cannot be a fiscal conservative - then I disagree with Richard Wagner's definition. Simple.
The article was about a group of people who jeered when Giuliani balked at a flat tax. I'd love for someone to expand on this, not deflect from the original issue. |
For the third time, when will you answer a simple question? He asked one, to which you immediately ignored and asked your own.
It's a pretty simple process..
Someone asks a question
Usually someone else answers it, and then asks their own....
But in your world:
Someone asks a question
And then you ask 2-3 others instead.
Hey look, it's ok, if you can't possibly answer something without rhetoric and right-wing regurgitated garbage, just say so. No one will think of you as a lesser man for admitting a fault. |
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| Richard Wagner |
Quote: Originally posted by VacateTheWord
For the third time, if this is an issue of - if you support a progressive tax system, then you cannot be a fiscal conservative - then I disagree with Richard Wagner's definition. Simple.
The article was about a group of people who jeered when Giuliani balked at a flat tax. I'd love for someone to expand on this, not deflect from the original issue. |
Let the definition of the term "fiscal conservative" not be the point of this discussion. We can have that discussion in another thread. Forget what problems with the flat tax might be floating around in Giuliani's head. What I am asking is for a Giuliani supporter to explain the following statement.
"Our economy is dependent upon the way our [progressive income] tax system operates."
Do you agree with that statement? If so, why? What is the virtue of a progressive income tax? Why is the economy dependent on having the government impose this Marxist idea on the people? |
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| Halcyon |
Quote: Originally posted by Richard Wagner
Let the definition of the term "fiscal conservative" not be the point of this discussion. We can have that discussion in another thread. Forget what problems with the flat tax might be floating around in Giuliani's head. What I am asking is for a Giuliani supporter to explain the following statement.
"Our economy is dependent upon the way our [progressive income] tax system operates."
Do you agree with that statement? If so, why? What is the virtue of a progressive income tax? |
Don't bother... you'll get a non-answer with about 2-3 more questions for YOU to respond to instead.
Good luck. |
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| Reverend Tyler |
| Why do you think that every single idea Marx proposed is going to lead to THE EVIL EMPIRE of the USSR? A slightly progressive income tax is hardly communism. |
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| VacateTheWord |
Quote: Originally posted by Richard Wagner
Let the definition of the term "fiscal conservative" not be the point of this discussion. We can have that discussion in another thread. Forget what problems with the flat tax might be floating around in Giuliani's head. What I am asking is for a Giuliani supporter to explain the following statement.
"Our economy is dependent upon the way our [progressive income] tax system operates."
Do you agree with that statement? If so, why? What is the virtue of a progressive income tax? Why is the economy dependent on having the government impose this Marxist idea on the people? |
I'll get back to you on this later.
I'm at work (car dealership) and I have a single mom who I have been corresponding via e-mail with (I'm the internet sales manager) coming in to take a look at a new car.
Later. |
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| VacateTheWord |
Quote: Originally posted by Reverend Tyler
Why do you think that every single idea Marx proposed is going to lead to THE EVIL EMPIRE of the USSR? A slightly progressive income tax is hardly communism. |
Bah, you pretty much stole my response, Tyler - although it had less to do with the USSR - more to do with tying progessive taxation with Karl Marx (that is, the concept that we are one step away from Marx's socialism because we have a progressive income tax). |
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| Richard Wagner |
Quote: Originally posted by Reverend Tyler
Why do you think that every single idea Marx proposed is going to lead to THE EVIL EMPIRE of the USSR? A slightly progressive income tax is hardly communism. |
Any income tax, especially a system of taxation that requires people to work nearly half of their lives for the government, is a form of slavery. The idea that the fruits of your labor do not belong to you but to the state is immoral and totalitarian. The idea that the state owns its citizens is as immoral as the idea that whites can own blacks. That idea is absolutely in opposition to the principles that this nation was founded on. There is a reason why the Founding Fathers did not grant the federal government the power to tax income in the Constitution. The reason was to protect our freedom. |
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| Richard Wagner |
Quote: Originally posted by VacateTheWord
Bah, you pretty much stole my response, Tyler - although it had less to do with the USSR - more to do with tying progessive taxation with Karl Marx (that is, the concept that we are one step away from Marx's socialism because we have a progressive income tax). |
That is a pretty sad excuse for trying to avoid a response. |
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| Richard Wagner |
| Still no answer. |
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| Oz |
Quote: Originally posted by Richard Wagner
Still no answer. |
Very good - you're catching on. If they think they can get away with silence the question will go away. You've done well here with this post :yes: |
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| Halcyon |
| Still no answer? I'm shocked and awed. :o |
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| zimmie |
| How about we do away with a federal income tax and provide universal health care to everyone. Sound like a good idea? |
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| Oz |
Quote: Originally posted by zimmie
How about we do away with a federal income tax and provide universal health care to everyone. Sound like a good idea? |
so now you're in love with being taxed? you make no sense |
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