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The Democrates are eating their own
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| The Democrates are eating their own
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| booybob |
You have got to give the wacko's at moveon.org their due.
They are so anti war they are targeting their own party.
The Hill
Wednesday, August 29, 2007
MoveOn targets pro-surge Democrat
By Aaron Blake
August 29, 2007
Rep. Brian Baird’s (D-Wash.) recent conversion on the Iraq war is beginning to affect more than the national dialogue. On Wednesday, liberal group MoveOn.org announced an ad campaign against the congressman in his own district.
Baird recently returned from a trip to Iraq and reversed his position on a withdrawal timetable, citing military progress in the four-year-old war.
MoveOn is calling the move a “flip-flop” and says it goes against the views of his constituents.
The ad does not make specific reference to Baird’s conversion. Instead, it features a soldier who served in Iraq talking about the amount of resistance troops encountered and at the end asks viewers to tell Baird to bring the troops home.
The soldier in the ad served in Iraq in 2003 and 2004 and describes a scene from that time, long before the current troop increase that Baird has cited as the reason for military progress.
Baird voted against the war in 2003 and had opposed it until last month. Republicans have been quick to key on his remarks as evidence of progress in Iraq.
MoveOn disagrees, calling the war “unwinnable.”
“So far this has been one of the bloodiest summers in Iraq, and voters don’t want to continue down a failed path,” said MoveOn campaigner Nita Chaudhary. “They want representatives who will stand up to President Bush’s reckless policy and bring our troops home.”
Baird has represented a swing district in southwest Washington since 1998 but has not seen strong challenges in recent years. He has taken more than 60 percent of the vote in each of the last three elections.
The ad buy is $20,000 in a cheap Vancouver market, and Chaudhary said it might be extended. |
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| Tech Difficulty |
all that matters now is your stance on the war, and on illegal immigration. those are the only two deciding factors that determine wether your a democrat or a republican. the actual 'd' or 'r' next to your name on the television means nothing anymore
its sad to watch 'hardcore' democrat website moveon.org bash other democrats simply because they dont 'lockstep' with the extreme left agenda |
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| Stickman |
Quote: Originally posted by booybob
You have got to give the wacko's at move on their due.
They are so anti war their are targeting their own party.
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You have no command of written English. |
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| Tomofnnh |
| Republicans are going to do the same to Ron Paul. (IMO) |
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| Fdubya247 |
Quote: Originally posted by Tech Difficulty
its sad to watch 'hardcore' democrat website moveon.org bash other democrats simply because they dont 'lockstep' with the extreme left agenda |
...it's called "principle"...besides, anyone "pro-surge" is an idiot or bought, and therefore should be "bashed". |
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| Tech Difficulty |
Quote: Originally posted by Fdubya247
...it's called "principle"...besides, anyone "pro-surge" is an idiot or bought, and therefore should be "bashed". |
sometimes, just sometimes, republicans have principals too. did you hear john mccain today talking about larry craig? although, im guessing you wont admit to it |
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| Fdubya247 |
Quote: Originally posted by Tech Difficulty
sometimes, just sometimes, republicans have principals too. did you hear john mccain today talking about larry craig? although, im guessing you wont admit to it |
...sure I would...not sure that's the best example tho...I mean, talk about going out on a limb...
A repuke prez candidate throwing a faeg under the bus??? Naaaawwww....!
:rolleyes:
...anyway, I never said repukes don't have principles (tho I've seen little to no recent evidence), I merely pointed out that you were somehow seeing a flaw in Move.on standing on theirs....
I know you are smarter/fairer than that. |
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| artechba |
| It's a principle. Something "not blindly following everything a Democrat or a Republican says". It's about forming your own opinions. You should try it. |
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| Turd_Cutter |
Quote: Originally posted by artechba
It's a principle. Something "not blindly following everything a Democrat or a Republican says". It's about forming your own opinions. You should try it. |
Exactly. |
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| Ass Boil |
haha
I love it when the party that demands it's members pledge loyalty to the Bush cult accuses Democrats of "eating their own"...
Getting Democrats to all agree on anything is like herding cats. And that is not a bad thing. It's called diversity of thought.
Baird's opinion on this is not based on fact or common sense, though. |
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| ICE CUBAN |
Quote: Originally posted by Tech Difficulty
with the extreme left agenda |
So being against the war is extreme left agenda?
Until you people realize that being against the war the extreme sane agenda then you can 'move on". |
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| Tech Difficulty |
Quote: Originally posted by ICE CUBAN
So being against the war is extreme left agenda?
Until you people realize that being against the war the extreme sane agenda then you can 'move on". |
im against the war, and i am not on the extreme left. i can only conclude that you misunderstood my post and therefore are commenting out of context |
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| Tech Difficulty |
Quote: Originally posted by artechba
It's a principle. Something "not blindly following everything a Democrat or a Republican says". It's about forming your own opinions. You should try it. |
im not sure if this post was directed towards me, but i form my own opinions on everything. im not sure how long you have been around but i do not support this war even though im a republican. i support a war on terrorism, but i do not believe our actions in iraq are a representation of warring on terrorism. is that enough of my own opinion? i also dont approve of the way george bush is handling this war, can i be free from being labled as another 'bush supporting, talking point spewing, moron' now? not everything is so black and white, and although i see people on here preaching it all the time when it comes to conservatives on this board, i notice some of the 'anti-bush' crowd seem to forget that when talking to people who dont immediately jump on the 'i hate everything about bush' bandwagon |
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| Tech Difficulty |
Quote: Originally posted by Fdubya247
...sure I would...not sure that's the best example tho...I mean, talk about going out on a limb...
A repuke prez candidate throwing a faeg under the bus??? Naaaawwww....!
:rolleyes:
...anyway, I never said repukes don't have principles (tho I've seen little to no recent evidence), I merely pointed out that you were somehow seeing a flaw in Move.on standing on theirs....
I know you are smarter/fairer than that. |
perhaps i didnt use the best example, but it was a recent one, and the one that came to mind right away. in any case, i can see you refuse to accept even the tiniest version of a conservative having some principals. even though john mccain may not be the guy with the most principals, his 'straight talk' is in fact, sometimes right on the money
he told cnn that larry craig should do everyone in idaho a favor, and step down immediately, just resign. mccain said that wether or not craig was gay was not the issue, he pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor charge of lewd conduct and admitted to acting unaccording to how a person in office should act, therefore he should resign
i think thats pretty straight forward, dont you? |
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| ArivacaCharlie |
Quote: Originally posted by Fdubya247
...it's called "principle"...besides, anyone "pro-surge" is an idiot or bought, and therefore should be "bashed". |
Exactly.
This isn't about "eating their own."
This is about calling anyone on the carpet, regardless of party, who is wrong.
Good for MoveOn.org! |
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| Tech Difficulty |
Quote: Originally posted by Ass Boil
haha
I love it when the party that demands it's members pledge loyalty to the Bush cult accuses Democrats of "eating their own"...
Getting Democrats to all agree on anything is like herding cats. And that is not a bad thing. It's called diversity of thought.
Baird's opinion on this is not based on fact or common sense, though. |
what an extremely near-sighted thing to say. i dont recall getting anything in the mail from the bush administration saying i had to swear fealty to him and i noticed a lot of republicans in the administration no longer go along with what hes saying. i guess that means either youre lying about the republican party demanding its members pledge loyalty to all things bush, or youre just exaggerating to make it seem worse than it really is
i think youre a smart man, so im guessing its the latter |
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| patcracker |
| Damnit another talking point killed. Someone call Rove so we can get another before the weekend. |
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| ArivacaCharlie |
Quote: Originally posted by Tech Difficulty
what an extremely near-sighted thing to say. i dont recall getting anything in the mail from the bush administration saying i had to swear fealty to him and i noticed a lot of republicans in the administration no longer go along with what hes saying. i guess that means either youre lying about the republican party demanding its members pledge loyalty to all things bush, or youre just exaggerating to make it seem worse than it really is
i think youre a smart man, so im guessing its the latter |
Did you forget the Cowardly Liar's famous sound byte:
"Yer either for us or again' us." |
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| Tech Difficulty |
Quote: Originally posted by ArivacaCharlie
Did you forget the Cowardly Liar's famous sound byte:
"Yer either for us or again' us." |
who said that, me? |
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| BarkonCue |
The Democrats have been eating their own since 2000 . This is not news ....
I for one am still angery at the Democrats for rolling over for, Cocksucker Bush.
Al gore should have taken the selection of Bush to the streets. We got Fucked ! |
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| Tech Difficulty |
Quote: Originally posted by BarkonCue
The Democrats have been eating their own since 2000 . This is not news ....
I for one am still angery at the Democrats for rolling over for, Cocksucker Bush.
Al gore should have taken the selection of Bush to the streets. We got Fucked ! |
you mean, the democrats should take some responsibility because they refused to stand up to bush? what a novel idea! im surprised more 'liberals' on this board dont see it that way myself |
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| Tech Difficulty |
Quote: Originally posted by ArivacaCharlie
Did you forget the Cowardly Liar's famous sound byte:
"Yer either for us or again' us." |
sorry, i misunderstood your post at first, allow me to address it again. the republicans chose to follow blindly which does not mean that bush forced them to swear loyalty. he did give them the ultimatum, to which they all chose, not just republicans but democrats too, to swear loyalty to bush and his decision to go into iraq. it was a choice, even though you may not view it as such, it was still a choice. which is why this whole bush is the same as hitler argument holds no water |
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| BarkonCue |
Quote: Originally posted by Tech Difficulty
you mean, the democrats should take some responsibility because they refused to stand up to bush? what a novel idea! im surprised more 'liberals' on this board dont see it that way myself |
No. I'm saying the Democrats should take full responsibility, it was a big mistake not to fight
bush when we had a chance.
I did my best. :D |
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| Tech Difficulty |
Quote: Originally posted by BarkonCue
No. I'm saying the Democrats should take full responsibility, it was a big mistake not to fight
bush when we had a chance.
I did my best. :D |
imagine that, a real living breathing thinking liberal on this board. thank you for having the courage and balls to say what some others on this board will not. i dont claim to believe everything bush does, and i have no problems admitting the mistakes of the republican party has made, and theyve made a lot over the past 6 years, but to think the democrats are free of any responsibility like some on this board do makes me sick. and maybe its because of the way they come off on this board that makes me think that way, but i swear i get the feeling that its become a witch hunt to destroy all conservative ideals and posters on this board simply for the sake that were conservatives |
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| BarkonCue |
Quote: Originally posted by Tech Difficulty
imagine that, a real living breathing thinking liberal on this board. thank you for having the courage and balls to say what some others on this board will not. i dont claim to believe everything bush does, and i have no problems admitting the mistakes of the republican party has made, and theyve made a lot over the past 6 years, but to think the democrats are free of any responsibility like some on this board do makes me sick. and maybe its because of the way they come off on this board that makes me think that way, but i swear i get the feeling that its become a witch hunt to destroy all conservative ideals and posters on this board simply for the sake that were conservatives |
Thanks, this position is an easy one for me to defend. |
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| mingmen |
Quote: Originally posted by Tech Difficulty
what an extremely near-sighted thing to say. i dont recall getting anything in the mail from the bush administration saying i had to swear fealty to him and i noticed a lot of republicans in the administration no longer go along with what hes saying. i guess that means either youre lying about the republican party demanding its members pledge loyalty to all things bush, or youre just exaggerating to make it seem worse than it really is
i think youre a smart man, so im guessing its the latter |
you just lost major points with me, for whatever it is worth.
like it needs to come in the mail :jj: |
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| mingmen |
Quote: Originally posted by Tech Difficulty
you mean, the democrats should take some responsibility because they refused to stand up to bush? what a novel idea! im surprised more 'liberals' on this board dont see it that way myself |
I think standing up to Bush on terra issues is a political non-starter. For a number of reasons - chief among them the adolescent way news is consumed in this nation.
I am sure you would love for them to throw away the '08 elections to "stand up to Bush". Convenient. |
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| mingmen |
Quote: Originally posted by Tech Difficulty
sorry, i misunderstood your post at first, allow me to address it again. the republicans chose to follow blindly which does not mean that bush forced them to swear loyalty. |
Oh, really. That is how this administration operates? Ha ha. |
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| zimmie |
Quote: Originally posted by Tech Difficulty
imagine that, a real living breathing thinking liberal on this board. thank you for having the courage and balls to say what some others on this board will not. i dont claim to believe everything bush does, and i have no problems admitting the mistakes of the republican party has made, and theyve made a lot over the past 6 years, but to think the democrats are free of any responsibility like some on this board do makes me sick. and maybe its because of the way they come off on this board that makes me think that way, but i swear i get the feeling that its become a witch hunt to destroy all conservative ideals and posters on this board simply for the sake that were conservatives |
you need to pledge allegiance to Hilliary Clinton now...otherwise you'll be out of touch with what these liberals will all be doing this time next year....It will be fun to watch them move from disdain for her today, to acceptance next spring, to jumping on the bandwagon next October.....
watch and see, it's hilarious and sooo predictable..... |
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| mingmen |
Quote: Originally posted by Tech Difficulty
imagine that, a real living breathing thinking liberal on this board. thank you for having the courage and balls to say what some others on this board will not. i dont claim to believe everything bush does, and i have no problems admitting the mistakes of the republican party has made, and theyve made a lot over the past 6 years, but to think the democrats are free of any responsibility like some on this board do makes me sick. and maybe its because of the way they come off on this board that makes me think that way, but i swear i get the feeling that its become a witch hunt to destroy all conservative ideals and posters on this board simply for the sake that were conservatives |
there is nothing conservative about Bush/Cheney. What the fuck are you smoking? |
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| Tech Difficulty |
Quote: Originally posted by mingmen
there is nothing conservative about Bush/Cheney. What the fuck are you smoking? |
would you like to have an actual discussion regarding all of your posts to me? or should I assume you just wanted to do a virtual 'drive by' of my posts and really arent interested in my thoughts? please let me know how i should handle your posts |
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| mingmen |
Quote: Originally posted by Tech Difficulty
would you like to have an actual discussion regarding all of your posts to me? or should I assume you just wanted to do a virtual 'drive by' of my posts and really arent interested in my thoughts? please let me know how i should handle your posts |
anyway you like - you could hit the quote button, then add your reaction. It is easy once you get the hang of it. |
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| BarkonCue |
Quote: Originally posted by Tech Difficulty
would you like to have an actual discussion regarding all of your posts to me? or should I assume you just wanted to do a virtual 'drive by' of my posts and really arent interested in my thoughts? please let me know how i should handle your posts |
I understood your point . |
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| Da Truth |
Quote: Originally posted by Tech Difficulty
its sad to watch 'hardcore' democrat website moveon.org bash other democrats simply because they dont 'lockstep' with the extreme left agenda |
Yeah because nobody on the right has been bashed over the last seven years if they didn't drink the Bush-Cheney kool-aid, right? |
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| mingmen |
Quote: Originally posted by Tech Difficulty
sorry, i misunderstood your post at first, allow me to address it again. the republicans chose to follow blindly which does not mean that bush forced them to swear loyalty. he did give them the ultimatum, to which they all chose, not just republicans but democrats too, to swear loyalty to bush and his decision to go into iraq. it was a choice, even though you may not view it as such, it was still a choice. which is why this whole bush is the same as hitler argument holds no water |
so we have established that Hitler is not Bush. That only took 7 years. :burst:
I wonder what the confusion was? :burst: |
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| Tech Difficulty |
Quote: Originally posted by BarkonCue
I understood your point . |
thanks |
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| ArivacaCharlie |
Quote: Originally posted by Tech Difficulty
who said that, me? |
Uh, no. I was talking about Bush. |
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| ArivacaCharlie |
Quote: Originally posted by BarkonCue
The Democrats have been eating their own since 2000 . This is not news ....
I for one am still angery at the Democrats for rolling over for, Cocksucker Bush.
Al gore should have taken the selection of Bush to the streets. We got Fucked ! |
We gotta get passed that one. That's just a case of the electoral college deciding against the popular vote. It happened before.
Electing Bush was (generally) fair. Re-electing him was blatantly and dangerously stupid. |
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| ArivacaCharlie |
Quote: Originally posted by mingmen
so we have established that Hitler is not Bush. That only took 7 years. :burst:
I wonder what the confusion was? :burst: |
Hitler had more charisma. |
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| ArivacaCharlie |
Quote: Originally posted by zimmie
you need to pledge allegiance to Hilliary Clinton now...otherwise you'll be out of touch with what these liberals will all be doing this time next year....It will be fun to watch them move from disdain for her today, to acceptance next spring, to jumping on the bandwagon next October.....
watch and see, it's hilarious and sooo predictable..... |
Zimmie, dammit, you're right.
If Hillary gets the nod, that will make it awfully hard to defend the Dems. She is, undoubtedly, the most corrupt candidate running as a Democrat.
Still, Bush is the worst President so far. I threw you an olive branch so, at least, admit that. |
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| Fdubya247 |
Quote: Originally posted by Tech Difficulty
perhaps i didnt use the best example, but it was a recent one, and the one that came to mind right away. in any case, i can see you refuse to accept even the tiniest version of a conservative having some principals. even though john mccain may not be the guy with the most principals, his 'straight talk' is in fact, sometimes right on the money
he told cnn that larry craig should do everyone in idaho a favor, and step down immediately, just resign. mccain said that wether or not craig was gay was not the issue, he pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor charge of lewd conduct and admitted to acting unaccording to how a person in office should act, therefore he should resign
i think thats pretty straight forward, dont you? |
...I don't think the McCain example has much to do with principle. Its the politically self-serving thing for him to say. Think of all the despicable things/crimes and people in the GOP McCain has supported and/or let slip by. But suddenly he's a big man when a faeg gets exposed...please. :rolleyes:
If he had any principle he wouldn't be the total Bush lapdog he is. "Straight talk" died when Bush and Rove fucked him in the ass in 2000....he's so "principled" he turned right around and bent over for them for the last 7 years, selling out the constitution and the people.
McCain is a punk-bitch-jabroni, who has completely destroyed his cred and rep. Fuck him. He turned out to be just like the rest.
But that is besides the point. You were the one who saw some apparent inconsistency in Move.on standing on principle. And you brought up McCain. The contradiction is not mine. I have never criticized anyone for standing on principle. |
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| Fdubya247 |
Quote: Originally posted by ArivacaCharlie
Exactly.
This isn't about "eating their own."
This is about calling anyone on the carpet, regardless of party, who is wrong.
Good for MoveOn.org! |
:ps: :ps: :ps: |
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| ArivacaCharlie |
Quote: Originally posted by Fdubya247
...I don't think the McCain example has much to do with principle. Its the politically self-serving thing for him to say. Think of all the despicable things/crimes and people in the GOP McCain has supported and/or let slip by. But suddenly he's a big man when a faeg gets exposed...please. :rolleyes:
If he had any principle he wouldn't be the total Bush lapdog he is. "Straight talk" died when Bush and Rove fucked him in the ass in 2000....he's so "principled" he turned right around and bent over for them for the last 7 years, selling out the constitution and the people.
McCain is a punk-bitch-jabroni, who has completely destroyed his cred and rep. Fuck him. He turned out to be just like the rest.
But that is besides the point. You were the one who saw some apparent inconsistency in Move.on standing on principle. And you brought up McCain. The contradiction is not mine. I have never criticized anyone for standing on principle. |
Coming from Az, I can vouch for what a 2-faced fucktard McCain is. If it wasn't for all the right-wing retirees who are taking over this state, he never would've got elected. |
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| Fdubya247 |
Quote: Originally posted by BarkonCue
The Democrats have been eating their own since 2000 . This is not news ....
I for one am still angery at the Democrats for rolling over for, Cocksucker Bush.
Al gore should have taken the selection of Bush to the streets. We got Fucked ! |
The dems have been unforgivable cunts and have failed us for sure....and there ARE instances where they have "eaten their own" that had nothing to do with principle and everything to do with politics (in the worst sense of the word).
The Move.on example is just not one of them. |
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| Fdubya247 |
Quote: Originally posted by Tech Difficulty
you mean, the democrats should take some responsibility because they refused to stand up to bush? what a novel idea! im surprised more 'liberals' on this board dont see it that way myself |
...I'd say most of the "liberals" in here DO see it that way. Where have you been? |
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| Tech Difficulty |
Quote: Originally posted by Fdubya247
...I don't think the McCain example has much to do with principle. Its the politically self-serving thing for him to say. Think of all the despicable things/crimes and people in the GOP McCain has supported and/or let slip by. But suddenly he's a big man when a faeg gets exposed...please. :rolleyes:
If he had any principle he wouldn't be the total Bush lapdog he is. "Straight talk" died when Bush and Rove fucked him in the ass in 2000....he's so "principled" he turned right around and bent over for them for the last 7 years, selling out the constitution and the people.
McCain is a punk-bitch-jabroni, who has completely destroyed his cred and rep. Fuck him. He turned out to be just like the rest.
But that is besides the point. You were the one who saw some apparent inconsistency in Move.on standing on principle. And you brought up McCain. The contradiction is not mine. I have never criticized anyone for standing on principle. |
i never said mccain was a man of principle or integrity, i only said that he was talking with principle regarding the larry craig issue. in any case, i have no problem with moveon.org, ive never visited the site myself and so i cant really comment on it even though my original comment was supposed to be more of a 'tounge in cheek' comment, i realize that it obviously had a profound effect on the 'liberals' on this board. sorry for getting you all up in arms about it, it was somewhat of a joke, but i realize i didnt make it seem as such |
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| Fdubya247 |
Quote: Originally posted by Tech Difficulty
which is why this whole bush is the same as hitler argument holds no water |
...the german people loved hitler the same way/for the same reasons idiots love/follow Bush....
They were scared, weak-minded and DUPED. But german circumstances circa 1930 give them an excuse that modern Americans, just don't have. |
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| Tech Difficulty |
Quote: Originally posted by Fdubya247
...the german people loved hitler the same way/for the same reasons idiots love/follow Bush....
They were scared, weak-minded and DUPED. But german circumstances circa 1930 give them an excuse that modern Americans, just don't have. |
im no expert on nazi germany, but i got the impression that many people high up in the administration of nazi germany were executed if they tried to stand up against hitler. i could be completely wrong about that, but if it is true, then these two scenarios are very different in the fact that no one would have been executed for speaking their mind about bush |
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| mingmen |
Quote: Originally posted by Tech Difficulty
im no expert on nazi germany, but i got the impression that many people high up in the administration of nazi germany were executed if they tried to stand up against hitler. i could be completely wrong about that, but if it is true, then these two scenarios are very different in the fact that no one would have been executed for speaking their mind about bush |
politically executed |
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| Fdubya247 |
Quote: Originally posted by Tech Difficulty
im no expert on nazi germany, but i got the impression that many people high up in the administration of nazi germany were executed if they tried to stand up against hitler. |
...we were talking about "the people" "choosing" to follow these men.
Quote: Originally posted by Tech Difficulty
i could be completely wrong about that, but if it is true, then these two scenarios are very different in the fact that no one would have been executed for speaking their mind about bush |
...yeah, the repukes in government don't have much of an excuse for selling out the constitution and the People. Just getting a pay-check...
...and lets not pretend that political assassination of political enemies of the Bush Admin. does not occur...its just a modern version (see 2000 McCain, Gen. Shinseke, Joe Wilson, etc., etc., etc.,....) of it.
The GOP does what it can get away with. And under the Bush-Cabal 7 year assault on the Constitution, "Checks and Balances", etc., their options have ever broadened....
:ps: |
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| Richard Wagner |
Quote: Originally posted by Tech Difficulty
all that matters now is your stance on the war, and on illegal immigration. those are the only two deciding factors that determine wether your a democrat or a republican. the actual 'd' or 'r' next to your name on the television means nothing anymore
its sad to watch 'hardcore' democrat website moveon.org bash other democrats simply because they dont 'lockstep' with the extreme left agenda |
So are you in denial of the reality of political parties? |
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| BarkonCue |
Quote: Originally posted by Fdubya247
The dems have been unforgivable cunts and have failed us for sure....and there ARE instances where they have "eaten their own" that had nothing to do with principle and everything to do with politics (in the worst sense of the word).
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I think that the independent party will capitalize on this in coming elections.
My vote is up for grabs this time around , i no longer tow my party's line. |
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| Tech Difficulty |
Quote: Originally posted by Fdubya247
...we were talking about "the people" "choosing" to follow these men.
...yeah, the repukes in government don't have much of an excuse for selling out the constitution and the People. Just getting a pay-check...
...and lets not pretend that political assassination of political enemies of the Bush Admin. does not occur...its just a modern version (see 2000 McCain, Gen. Shinseke, Joe Wilson, etc., etc., etc.,....) of it.
The GOP does what it can get away with. And under the Bush-Cabal 7 year assault on the Constitution, "Checks and Balances", etc., their options have ever broadened....
:ps: |
i was talking specifically about the people that hold office with "these men", not the american or german citizens. and i didnt say there were no similarities, i said bush is no where near as bad as hitler, and to try and equate the two seems like a stretch. really, i think its such a stretch that it really makes you look like youll just believe anything that makes bush look so horrible, that really im surprised you havent drawn four hundred similarities between bush and the devil
i hold you in very high regard as a 'liberal' on this board fdubya, but trying to say bush is the same as hitler really just stinks of partisan politics |
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| Tech Difficulty |
Quote: Originally posted by Richard Wagner
So are you in denial of the reality of political parties? |
i am unsure of what it is you are implying about me, please explain |
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| Fdubya247 |
Quote: Originally posted by Tech Difficulty
i didnt say there were no similarities, i said bush is no where near as bad as hitler, and to try and equate the two seems like a stretch. |
Pointing out "similarities" does not necessarily mean I think Bush is "as bad" as hitler. Its just that, as an American, ANY similarity should be looked at in horror.
If you think there ARE some similarities, how is it "a stretch" to compare the two...?
Quote: Originally posted by Tech Difficulty
really, i think its such a stretch that it really makes you look like youll just believe anything that makes bush look so horrible, |
He IS that horrible, when the Constitution, Truth, and Justice is the standard...The facts are what they are.
We haven't had this level of Tyranny in the "Colonies" since we gave the East India Co. the boot....
Quote: Originally posted by Tech Difficulty
that really im surprised you havent drawn four hundred similarities between bush and the devil |
I don't have any quotes from the Devil.
Quote: Originally posted by Tech Difficulty
i hold you in very high regard as a 'liberal' on this board fdubya, but trying to say bush is the same as hitler really just stinks of partisan politics |
He isn't the same. He's an ignorant puppet. Hitler was not. But Hitler was insane, while Bush doesn't have that excuse. Followers of either are DUPED SUCKERS and are/were most likely Reich-Wing Authoritarian Assholes...
Either way, the comparisons are both "fun" AND "funny"...
:hitler: |
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| sjollypbj |
| Show me a true liberal and I will show you my support for Dennis Kucinich, the only man of the people |
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| Fdubya247 |
Quote: Originally posted by sjollypbj
Show me a true liberal and I will show you my support for Dennis Kucinich, the only man of the people |
:ps: |
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| Tech Difficulty |
Quote: Originally posted by Fdubya247
Pointing out "similarities" does not necessarily mean I think Bush is "as bad" as hitler. Its just that, as an American, ANY similarity should be looked at in horror.
If you think there ARE some similarities, how is it "a stretch" to compare the two...?
He IS that horrible, when the Constitution, Truth, and Justice is the standard...The facts are what they are.
We haven't had this level of Tyranny in the "Colonies" since we gave the East India Co. the boot....
I don't have any quotes from the Devil.
He isn't the same. He's an ignorant puppet. Hitler was not. But Hitler was insane, while Bush doesn't have that excuse. Followers of either are DUPED SUCKERS and are/were most likely Reich-Wing Authoritarian Assholes...
Either way, the comparisons are both "fun" AND "funny"...
:hitler: |
i think you want to believe bush is trying very hard to fuck this country up, and i dont see it that way. i think he made mistakes, i think he made some very greivous mistakes, but i dont see him anywhere near hitler-esque. if you dont think hes as bad as hitler, my apologies, because that is what i thought you were trying to argue. i dont mind showing similarities between the two in jest or fun, but to seriously think hes as bad as hitler suggests youre just angry at republicans and will do anything to discredit them. at least, thats how it looks to me |
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| Fdubya247 |
Quote: Originally posted by Tech Difficulty
i think you want to believe bush is trying very hard to fuck this country up, |
...His administration has done willfully treasonous things, as well as selling out the country/people and the future of same, to Wall St. Chalking it up to "mistakes" is just naive. Read PNAC for starters.
I reserve the right to hate the living fuck out of him and everything he stands for. The people that support him are no better in my eyes.
Not being able to recognize Tyranny is a mental disorder known as Right Wing Authoritarianism. RWA's provide fertile ground for fascism and tyranny of all kinds. You find American RWA's and fascistic tendencies exclusively in the GOP.
Know your Party, TD:
The 14 Characteristics of Fascism
by Lawrence Britt
Spring 2003
Free Inquiry magazine
Political scientist Dr. Lawrence Britt recently wrote an article
about fascism ("Fascism Anyone?," Free Inquiry, Spring 2003, page
20). Studying the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini
(Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia), and Pinochet
(Chile), Dr. Britt found they all had 14 elements in common. He
calls these the identifying characteristics of fascism. The
excerpt is in accordance with the magazine's policy.
The 14 characteristics are:
1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic
mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia.
Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing
and in public displays.
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the
people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can
be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people
tend to look the other way or even approve of torture,
summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of
prisoners, etc.
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over
the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe:
racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals;
communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.
4. Supremacy of the Military
Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the
military is given a disproportionate amount of government
funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and
military service are glamorized.
5. Rampant Sexism
The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost
exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes,
traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to
abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation
and national policy.
6. Controlled Mass Media
Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government,
but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by
government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and
executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very
common.
7. Obsession with National Security
Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over
the masses.
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common
religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public
opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from
government leaders, even when the major tenets of the
religion are diametrically opposed to the government's
policies or actions.
9. Corporate Power is Protected
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation
often are the ones who put the government leaders into power,
creating a mutually beneficial business/government
relationship and power elite.
10. Labor Power is Suppressed
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat
to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated
entirely, or are severely suppressed .
11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility
to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for
professors and other academics to be censored or even
arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and
governments often refuse to fund the arts.
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment
Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless
power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to
overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the
name of patriotism. There is often a national police force
with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of
friends and associates who appoint each other to government
positions and use governmental power and authority to protect
their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in
fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to
be appropriated or even outright stolen by government
leaders.
14. Fraudulent Elections
Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham.
Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns
against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use
of legislation to control voting numbers or political
district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist
nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or
control elections.
Copyright © 2003 Free Inquiry magazine
======================================
Significant Correlations Of RWAs (Right Wing Authoritarians):
Altemeyer discovered a wide range of correlations over the years, which can be organized into four general categories. (The Authoritarian Specter)
1: Faulty reasoning — RWAs are more likely to:
* Make many incorrect inferences from evidence.
* Hold contradictory ideas leading them to ‘speak out of both sides of their mouths.’
* Uncritically accept that many problems are ‘our most serious problem.’
* Uncritically accept insufficient evidence that supports their beliefs.
* Uncritically trust people who tell them what they want to hear.
* Use many double standards in their thinking and judgments.
2: Hostility Toward Outgroups — RWAs are more likely to:
* Weaken constitutional guarantees of liberty such as the Bill of Rights.
* Severely punish ‘common’ criminals in a role-playing situation.
* Admit they obtain personal pleasure from punishing such people.
* Be prejudiced against racial, ethnic, nationalistic, and linguistic minorities.
* Be hostile toward homosexuals.
* Volunteer to help the government persecute almost anyone.
* Be mean-spirited toward those who have made mistakes and suffered.
3: Profound Character Attributes — RWAs are more likely to:
* Be dogmatic.
* Be zealots.
* Be hypocrites.
* Be absolutists
* Be bullies when they have power over others.
* Help cause and inflame intergroup conflict.
* Seek dominance over others by being competitive and destructive in situations requiring cooperation.
4: Blindness To One’s Own Failings And To The Failings Of Authority Figures Whom They Respect— RWAs are more likely to:
* Believe they have no personal failings.
* Avoid learning about their personal failings.
* Be highly self-righteous.
* Use religion to erase guilt over their acts and to maintain their self-righteousness.
RWA is also correlated with political conservatism — not so much at the level of ordinary voters, but with increasing strength as one moves from voters to activists to office holders, and then from lower- to higher-level officeholders. (The Authoritarian Specter)
In one part of his summation, Altemeyer wrote that RWAs are more likely to be: "Conservative/Reform party (Canada) or Republican Party (United States) lawmakers who (1) have a conservative economic philosophy; (2) believe in social dominance; (3) are ethnocentric; (4) are highly nationalistic; (5) oppose abortion; (6) support capital punishment; (7) oppose gun-control legislation; (8) say they value freedom but actually want to undermine the Bill of Rights; (9) do not value equality very highly and oppose measures to increase it; (10) are not likely to rise in the Democratic party, but do so among Republicans." (The Authoritarian Specter)
================================
Researchers help define what makes a political conservative
By Kathleen Maclay, Media Relations | 22 July 2003 (revised 7/25/03)
BERKELEY – Politically conservative agendas may range from supporting the Vietnam War to upholding traditional moral and religious values to opposing welfare. But are there consistent underlying motivations?
Four researchers who culled through 50 years of research literature about the psychology of conservatism report that at the core of political conservatism is the resistance to change and a tolerance for inequality, and that some of the common psychological factors linked to political conservatism include:
* Fear and aggression
* Dogmatism and intolerance of ambiguity
* Uncertainty avoidance
* Need for cognitive closure
* Terror management
"From our perspective, these psychological factors are capable of contributing to the adoption of conservative ideological contents, either independently or in combination," the researchers wrote in an article, "Political Conservatism as Motivated Social Cognition," recently published in the American Psychological Association's Psychological Bulletin.....
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/..._politics.shtml
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| Tech Difficulty |
Quote: Originally posted by Fdubya247
...His administration has done willfully treasonous things, as well as selling out the country/people and the future of same, to Wall St. Chalking it up to "mistakes" is just naive. Read PNAC for starters.
I reserve the right to hate the living fuck out of him and everything he stands for. The people that support him are no better in my eyes.
Not being able to recognize Tyranny is a mental disorder known as Right Wing Authoritarianism. RWA's provide fertile ground for fascism and tyranny of all kinds. You find American RWA's and fascistic tendencies exclusively in the GOP.
Know your Party, TD:
The 14 Characteristics of Fascism
by Lawrence Britt
Spring 2003
Free Inquiry magazine
Political scientist Dr. Lawrence Britt recently wrote an article
about fascism ("Fascism Anyone?," Free Inquiry, Spring 2003, page
20). Studying the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini
(Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia), and Pinochet
(Chile), Dr. Britt found they all had 14 elements in common. He
calls these the identifying characteristics of fascism. The
excerpt is in accordance with the magazine's policy.
The 14 characteristics are:
1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic
mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia.
Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing
and in public displays.
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the
people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can
be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people
tend to look the other way or even approve of torture,
summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of
prisoners, etc.
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over
the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe:
racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals;
communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.
4. Supremacy of the Military
Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the
military is given a disproportionate amount of government
funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and
military service are glamorized.
5. Rampant Sexism
The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost
exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes,
traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to
abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation
and national policy.
6. Controlled Mass Media
Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government,
but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by
government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and
executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very
common.
7. Obsession with National Security
Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over
the masses.
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common
religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public
opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from
government leaders, even when the major tenets of the
religion are diametrically opposed to the government's
policies or actions.
9. Corporate Power is Protected
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation
often are the ones who put the government leaders into power,
creating a mutually beneficial business/government
relationship and power elite.
10. Labor Power is Suppressed
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat
to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated
entirely, or are severely suppressed .
11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility
to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for
professors and other academics to be censored or even
arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and
governments often refuse to fund the arts.
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment
Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless
power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to
overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the
name of patriotism. There is often a national police force
with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of
friends and associates who appoint each other to government
positions and use governmental power and authority to protect
their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in
fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to
be appropriated or even outright stolen by government
leaders.
14. Fraudulent Elections
Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham.
Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns
against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use
of legislation to control voting numbers or political
district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist
nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or
control elections.
Copyright © 2003 Free Inquiry magazine
======================================
Significant Correlations Of RWAs (Right Wing Authoritarians):
Altemeyer discovered a wide range of correlations over the years, which can be organized into four general categories. (The Authoritarian Specter)
1: Faulty reasoning — RWAs are more likely to:
* Make many incorrect inferences from evidence.
* Hold contradictory ideas leading them to ‘speak out of both sides of their mouths.’
* Uncritically accept that many problems are ‘our most serious problem.’
* Uncritically accept insufficient evidence that supports their beliefs.
* Uncritically trust people who tell them what they want to hear.
* Use many double standards in their thinking and judgments.
2: Hostility Toward Outgroups — RWAs are more likely to:
* Weaken constitutional guarantees of liberty such as the Bill of Rights.
* Severely punish ‘common’ criminals in a role-playing situation.
* Admit they obtain personal pleasure from punishing such people.
* Be prejudiced against racial, ethnic, nationalistic, and linguistic minorities.
* Be hostile toward homosexuals.
* Volunteer to help the government persecute almost anyone.
* Be mean-spirited toward those who have made mistakes and suffered.
3: Profound Character Attributes — RWAs are more likely to:
* Be dogmatic.
* Be zealots.
* Be hypocrites.
* Be absolutists
* Be bullies when they have power over others.
* Help cause and inflame intergroup conflict.
* Seek dominance over others by being competitive and destructive in situations requiring cooperation.
4: Blindness To One’s Own Failings And To The Failings Of Authority Figures Whom They Respect— RWAs are more likely to:
* Believe they have no personal failings.
* Avoid learning about their personal failings.
* Be highly self-righteous.
* Use religion to erase guilt over their acts and to maintain their self-righteousness.
RWA is also correlated with political conservatism — not so much at the level of ordinary voters, but with increasing strength as one moves from voters to activists to office holders, and then from lower- to higher-level officeholders. (The Authoritarian Specter)
In one part of his summation, Altemeyer wrote that RWAs are more likely to be: "Conservative/Reform party (Canada) or Republican Party (United States) lawmakers who (1) have a conservative economic philosophy; (2) believe in social dominance; (3) are ethnocentric; (4) are highly nationalistic; (5) oppose abortion; (6) support capital punishment; (7) oppose gun-control legislation; (8) say they value freedom but actually want to undermine the Bill of Rights; (9) do not value equality very highly and oppose measures to increase it; (10) are not likely to rise in the Democratic party, but do so among Republicans." (The Authoritarian Specter)
================================
Researchers help define what makes a political conservative
By Kathleen Maclay, Media Relations | 22 July 2003 (revised 7/25/03)
BERKELEY – Politically conservative agendas may range from supporting the Vietnam War to upholding traditional moral and religious values to opposing welfare. But are there consistent underlying motivations?
Four researchers who culled through 50 years of research literature about the psychology of conservatism report that at the core of political conservatism is the resistance to change and a tolerance for inequality, and that some of the common psychological factors linked to political conservatism include:
* Fear and aggression
* Dogmatism and intolerance of ambiguity
* Uncertainty avoidance
* Need for cognitive closure
* Terror management
"From our perspective, these psychological factors are capable of contributing to the adoption of conservative ideological contents, either independently or in combination," the researchers wrote in an article, "Political Conservatism as Motivated Social Cognition," recently published in the American Psychological Association's Psychological Bulletin.....
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/..._politics.shtml
|
so i am an rwa now because i dont believe bush is trying to fuck this country up? i think there are a lot of influences in politics, and if you think bush is acting of his own accord, i would implore you to look harder at our government |
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| Fdubya247 |
Quote: Originally posted by Tech Difficulty
so i am an rwa now because i dont believe bush is trying to fuck this country up? |
No, while most all "political" rwa's are repukes, not all repukes are rwa's. You could just be naive/ignorant/pollyan-ish on this issue.
While you may/may not be an RWA, you nonetheless support that ideology by supporting Bush/republicans.
The 14 Characteristics of Fascism match the modern GOP to a tee. If that disturbs you, you should re-think your political allegiances...
Quote: Originally posted by Tech Difficulty
i think there are a lot of influences in politics, and if you think bush is acting of his own accord, i would implore you to look harder at our government |
Bush is a puppet...
...but the party and it's 'values'/policies are what they are. And those are decidedly un-American. Using Bush is shorthand for the servants of corporate power and haters of the constitution/checks and balances, justice and truth.
The party is Bush(Cheney), and Bush(Cheney) is the party. Bush Family cronies litter his administration.
In the end, Bush stamps it all. . |
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| Tech Difficulty |
Quote: Originally posted by Fdubya247
No, while most all "political" rwa's are repukes, not all repukes are rwa's. You could just be naive/ignorant/pollyan-ish on this issue.
While you may/may not be an RWA, you nonetheless support that ideology by supporting Bush/republicans.
The 14 Characteristics of Fascism match the modern GOP to a tee. If that disturbs you, you should re-think your political allegiances...
Bush is a puppet...
...but the party and it's 'values'/policies are what they are. And those are decidedly un-American. Using Bush is shorthand for the servants of corporate power and haters of the constitution/checks and balances, justice and truth.
The party is Bush(Cheney), and Bush(Cheney) is the party. Bush Family cronies litter his administration.
In the end, Bush stamps it all. . |
you have left me virtually speechless, all i can say is that i do not support the direction the republicans have taken the party, and ive said it before. i only claim to agree with many of the conservative ideals, not to lock step with everything they do. i dont know where that puts me in your eyes |
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| Fdubya247 |
Quote: Originally posted by Tech Difficulty
you have left me virtually speechless, all i can say is that i do not support the direction the republicans have taken the party, and ive said it before. i only claim to agree with many of the conservative ideals, not to lock step with everything they do. i dont know where that puts me in your eyes |
...depends on what those "ideals" are.
I don't have much respect for (what I think are/what I've been shown to be) conservative "ideals", if only because I find them superficial/empty/lacking, and know that conservative "Leaders" use them only for manipulation of the citizenry.
All I know is that repukes (whether they know it or not) are serving a vile and un-American ideology of Corporate Tyranny.
If you wish to separate/define yourself as a "conservative" and NOT a repuke, then you better ditch Prez Dumbya, the Bush Cabal, and the GOP, ASAP.
The last "real" conservative leader I could respect was Goldwater...and he wouldn't recognize these modern repukes as ideological brethren at all....hell, I doubt he recognized his "successor", Reagan, as a "conservative" either...
If Bush = conservative, then conservative = :shit:
:ps: |
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| Fdubya247 |
TD,
Sorry if I came on too strong/intense (I'm not necessarily "talking" to just you ;) )...I get fired up on this topic...but all I'm really trying to say is that I don't think you *really* "agree" with Bush, the same way AB was telling NCSternMark that he doesn't *really* agree with Stonewall...
...we all have our blind-spots.
I still like your conservative ass....not too long ago I was really up NCSM's butt, calling him NCStupid, etc., because of the Stumpy "issue"...but we really agree on a lot, laugh at the same shit, and have ganged up on some of the REAL drooling idiots in here pretty damn good since then...
Peace 'n Chicken Grease, homey!!!
:roach: |
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| Tech Difficulty |
Quote: Originally posted by Fdubya247
Peace 'n Chicken Grease, homey!!! |
its all good in da hood, peckerwood |
|
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| Fdubya247 |
Quote: Originally posted by Tech Difficulty
its all good in da hood, peckerwood |
:D |
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| Crazytree |
Democrats eating Democrats...
Republicans eating strangers' cocks...
I'll take #1. |
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| Fdubya247 |
Quote: Originally posted by Crazytree
Democrats eating Democrats...
Republicans eating strangers' cocks...
I'll take #1. |
:spit: |
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| mingmen |
Quote: Originally posted by Tech Difficulty
i think you want to believe bush is trying very hard to fuck this country up, and i dont see it that way. i think he made mistakes, i think he made some very greivous mistakes, but i dont see him anywhere near hitler-esque. if you dont think hes as bad as hitler, my apologies, because that is what i thought you were trying to argue. i dont mind showing similarities between the two in jest or fun, but to seriously think hes as bad as hitler suggests youre just angry at republicans and will do anything to discredit them. at least, thats how it looks to me |
Bush is as hapless as a newborn kitten. Who really thinks he knows or does anything at all?
It is his handlers that are guilty and I don't see why you defend their obviously treasonous actions. To ignore the parallels between the Bush administration and the Nazi party is intellectually dishonest. I don't believe you don't understand the comparison.
Just sayin.
He said repeatedly that Bush is not as "bad" as Hitler. Why keep bringing up that obvious exaggeration? |
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| mingmen |
Quote: Originally posted by Tech Difficulty
so i am an rwa now because i dont believe bush is trying to fuck this country up? |
Kind of a pointless argument isn't it. Who cares about Bush. If you think this whole situation is just an unfortunate mistake - I think you are more than naive. |
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| Ass Boil |
Yeah, the Office of "Special Plans" was all a tragic "accident".
The politicization of the Justice Dept. was all a "mistake".
etc.
etc.
etc.
If all of the failures of this administration are just mistakes or accidents, they should be impeached on grounds of incompetence alone.... |
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| NC-Stern-Mark |
Quote: Originally posted by Fdubya247
not too long ago I was really up NCSM's butt, calling him NCStupid, etc., because of the Stumpy "issue"... |
Don't remind me!
:begood: |
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| Ass Boil |
| Don't worry, there is only one NCStupid here, and it isn't you..... |
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| harley-davidson |
Quote: Originally posted by Ass Boil
Don't worry, there is only one NCStupid here, and it isn't you..... |
NCstupids last post here was 08/12/07 on a global warming thread, he disappeared around the same time the sub-prime mortgages were hitting the wall and banks were handing out pink slips....
coincidence ....???? |
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| Ass Boil |
| Yeah, I thought about that. Even though he is a bottom feeding douche I hope he didn't lose his job..... |
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| NC-Stern-Mark |
| Shake it uuuuup :D |
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