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| Luther |
"Throughout the Middle Ages, the Mohammedans were more civilized and more humane than the Christians. Christians persecuted Jews, especially at times of religious excitement; the Crusades were associated with appalling pogroms. In Mohammedan countries, on the contrary, Jews were not in any way ill treated."
- Bertrand Russell, A History Of Western Philosophy |
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| Fdubya247 |
...this cognitive exercise is an intellectual dead-end, Luth.
Stumpy's response/script is nothing if not compulsive....
:roach: |
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| sixsixsix666 |
| Luther, what are you getting at? |
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| Luther |
Quote: Originally posted by sixsixsix666
Luther, what are you getting at? |
Wickedness inspired by religious dogma is by no means exclusive to Islam. |
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| Luther |
| There is a correlation between irrational behavior and religious belief in general; Islam just happens to be one of the dominant religions of the world. |
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| Luther |
| The more devout a society is the more depraved and uncivilized it is likely to be. During the Middle Ages it appears that Christian Europe was more devout than the regions under the influence of Islam. In the present day, the situation is reversed. |
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| NC-Stern-Mark |
If it were not for the Crusades, Islam would have taken over the entire world.
What is the point of this exercise? |
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| Stonewall |
Quote: Originally posted by Luther
"Throughout the Middle Ages, the Mohammedans were more civilized and more humane than the Christians. Christians persecuted Jews, especially at times of religious excitement; the Crusades were associated with appalling pogroms. In Mohammedan countries, on the contrary, Jews were not in any way ill treated."
- Bertrand Russell, A History Of Western Philosophy |
I disagree with that statement... |
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| Stonewall |
Quote: Originally posted by Luther
Wickedness inspired by religious dogma is by no means exclusive to Islam. |
I agree with that. |
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| Luther |
Quote: Originally posted by Stonewall
I disagree with that statement... |
So you know more about history than the eminent genius Bertrand Russell? Where did he go wrong? |
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| Stonewall |
Quote: Originally posted by Luther
So you know more about history than the imminent genius Bertrand Russell? Where did he go wrong? |
You would have to figure out where he got his information. What else has he said about this? Why did he say this? |
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| NC-Stern-Mark |
| Russel was no fan of Islam. |
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| Luther |
Quote: Originally posted by Stonewall
You would have to figure out where he got his information. What else has he said about this? Why did he say this? |
In his book A History Of Western Philosophy at the end of the chapter "Jewish Religious Development." He said it because he was composing a comprehensive history. He had no motivation to propagandize for Islam. |
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| Stonewall |
Quote: Originally posted by Luther
In his book A History Of Western Philosophy at the end of the chapter "Jewish Religious Development." He said it because he was composing a comprehensive history. He had no motivation to propagandize for Islam. |
I don't know what his motivation was by saying what he did. I would like to know the basis of it.
There is no doubt that Jews suffered in Europe and that every generation had their atrocity. Culminating in the holocaust. All in all it is obvious that for Jews historically they have been damaged more by Christianity than by Islam.
Islam is supposed to damage the "other". At the very least subjugate the other. Muslims are supposed to engage in Jihad to make Islam above all other religions and subjugate all others. That is the stated goal of Islam. That is the order from Muhammad to his people. An open order, never ending. And through the centuries that order has been followed. Even to this day.
Christianity has engaged in atrocity in it's name. The problem is however that in Christian texts it is not an obligation to fulfill. So, when Christianity has acted up it has always pulled back eventually. It can pull back. Islam has never pulled back. It has just stopped in certain areas for certain reasons until it can resume the offensive. |
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| SaintJimmy |
Quote: Originally posted by Stonewall
I don't know what his motivation was by saying what he did. I would like to know the basis of it.
There is no doubt that Jews suffered in Europe and that every generation had their atrocity. Culminating in the holocaust. All in all it is obvious that for Jews historically they have been damaged more by Christianity than by Islam.
Islam is supposed to damage the "other". At the very least subjugate the other. Muslims are supposed to engage in Jihad to make Islam above all other religions and subjugate all others. That is the stated goal of Islam. That is the order from Muhammad to his people. An open order, never ending. And through the centuries that order has been followed. Even to this day.
Christianity has engaged in atrocity in it's name. The problem is however that in Christian texts it is not an obligation to fulfill. So, when Christianity has acted up it has always pulled back eventually. It can pull back. Islam has never pulled back. It has just stopped in certain areas for certain reasons until it can resume the offensive. |
You're so full of shit, I'll bet your eyes are brown.
When you're the victim of an atrocity, does it make you feel better to know that it's not that big of an atrocity?
Also, your assertion that Islam is somehow more evil than Christianity because of it's tenets is stupid.
Christians are convinced that anyone who doesn't think like them will burn forever in hell.
Stop and think about that for a minute.
Now, I'm not going to say that Islam is any better, because in my view, it's all the same shit.
But think about this:
Just by believing that horseshit, you've written off many of the people you will encounter in your life without even meeting them - you automatically think of them as less than equal to you, because they're "heathens" who don't get to live with you forever in the sky, so why on earth would you give them the respect you give to fellow christians, or muslims, or jews?
Christians, in thier minds, have automatically relegated us non-believers to the ranks of the damned - to be saved, or ignored - but never listened to.
And don't try to pretend that this isn't true, or that it's just a small segment of the religion that thinks like that, because I've seen it throughout my entire life.
Every christian, no matter how polite and conciliatory they may be, secretly wish for thier enemies (read: non-believers) to burn forever and ever in a pit of liquid fire.
I don't know about you, but that seems pretty fucking extreme to me.
Remember, don't think for one minute that I'm trying to defend Islam - I'm not.
Not even close.
I hate all religions equally because they are a refuge for the fearful and ignorant, when they don't need a refuge. They need to man the fuck up and learn something. |
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| Reverend Tyler |
Quote: Originally posted by Luther
The more devout a society is the more depraved and uncivilized it is likely to be. During the Middle Ages it appears that Christian Europe was more devout than the regions under the influence of Islam. In the present day, the situation is reversed. |
Are you sure it isn't the opposite on that? That the more uncivilized and depraved a society is, the more devoutly religious they would be? |
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| Luther |
Quote: Originally posted by Reverend Tyler
Are you sure it isn't the opposite on that? That the more uncivilized and depraved a society is, the more devoutly religious they would be? |
That's an interesting question, but I don't think so. I think there are many possible causes of human depravity and wickedness, all of them rooted in ignorance and irrationality, but religion is just one of those possible causes. There are many examples of depraved and wicked civilizations that were not overly religious: the Soviet Union, Communist China, the Mongols, the British Empire, etc. I think that depravity and wickedness are the symptoms, ignorance and irrationality is the disease. |
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| NC-Stern-Mark |
Quote: Originally posted by Luther
That's an interesting question, but I don't think so. I think there are many possible causes of human depravity and wickedness, all of them rooted in ignorance and irrationality, but religion is just one of those possible causes. There are many examples of depraved and wicked civilizations that were not overly religious: the Soviet Union, Communist China, the Mongols, the British Empire, etc. I think that depravity and wickedness are the symptoms, ignorance and irrationality is the disease. |
Why would you qualify the Soviet Union, Communist China, the Mongols, the British Empire as not overtly religious? I surely believe the opposite applies.
Man believes in a superior being. Everywhere. |
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| NC-Stern-Mark |
Quote: Originally posted by SaintJimmy
You're so full of shit, I'll bet your eyes are brown.
When you're the victim of an atrocity, does it make you feel better to know that it's not that big of an atrocity?
Also, your assertion that Islam is somehow more evil than Christianity because of it's tenets is stupid.
Christians are convinced that anyone who doesn't think like them will burn forever in hell.
Stop and think about that for a minute.
Now, I'm not going to say that Islam is any better, because in my view, it's all the same shit.
But think about this:
Just by believing that horseshit, you've written off many of the people you will encounter in your life without even meeting them - you automatically think of them as less than equal to you, because they're "heathens" who don't get to live with you forever in the sky, so why on earth would you give them the respect you give to fellow christians, or muslims, or jews?
Christians, in thier minds, have automatically relegated us non-believers to the ranks of the damned - to be saved, or ignored - but never listened to.
And don't try to pretend that this isn't true, or that it's just a small segment of the religion that thinks like that, because I've seen it throughout my entire life.
Every christian, no matter how polite and conciliatory they may be, secretly wish for thier enemies (read: non-believers) to burn forever and ever in a pit of liquid fire.
I don't know about you, but that seems pretty fucking extreme to me.
Remember, don't think for one minute that I'm trying to defend Islam - I'm not.
Not even close.
I hate all religions equally because they are a refuge for the fearful and ignorant, when they don't need a refuge. They need to man the fuck up and learn something. |
Verbosity at it's worst... :rolleyes:
Now, what are you saying? Oh yeah, Christianty is just as bad as Islam.
And they need to "man up."
Thank you Jimmy. :rolleyes: |
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| Stonewall |
Quote: Originally posted by SaintJimmy
You're so full of shit, I'll bet your eyes are brown.
When you're the victim of an atrocity, does it make you feel better to know that it's not that big of an atrocity?
Also, your assertion that Islam is somehow more evil than Christianity because of it's tenets is stupid.
Christians are convinced that anyone who doesn't think like them will burn forever in hell.
Stop and think about that for a minute.
Now, I'm not going to say that Islam is any better, because in my view, it's all the same shit.
But think about this:
Just by believing that horseshit, you've written off many of the people you will encounter in your life without even meeting them - you automatically think of them as less than equal to you, because they're "heathens" who don't get to live with you forever in the sky, so why on earth would you give them the respect you give to fellow christians, or muslims, or jews?
Christians, in thier minds, have automatically relegated us non-believers to the ranks of the damned - to be saved, or ignored - but never listened to.
And don't try to pretend that this isn't true, or that it's just a small segment of the religion that thinks like that, because I've seen it throughout my entire life.
Every christian, no matter how polite and conciliatory they may be, secretly wish for thier enemies (read: non-believers) to burn forever and ever in a pit of liquid fire.
I don't know about you, but that seems pretty fucking extreme to me.
Remember, don't think for one minute that I'm trying to defend Islam - I'm not.
Not even close.
I hate all religions equally because they are a refuge for the fearful and ignorant, when they don't need a refuge. They need to man the fuck up and learn something. |
Islam believes all who are non-Muslim will go to hell also.
You can take what I said and say Islam is evil, that is an opinion that is very true. However, I simply stated a fact about Islam. |
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| Luther |
Quote: Originally posted by NC-Stern-Mark
Now, what are you saying? Oh yeah, Christianty is just as bad as Islam.
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That's what I am saying. |
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| Stonewall |
Quote: Originally posted by Luther
That's what I am saying. |
It depends on your definition of bad?
What country that is Christian majority looks like Iran? Or, Saudi Arabia? Pakistan? Egypt? Syria? Libya? The Sudan? Algeria?
What is your definition of "bad"? |
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| Luther |
Quote: Originally posted by Stonewall
It depends on your definition of bad?
What country that is Christian majority looks like Iran? Or, Saudi Arabia? Pakistan? Egypt? Syria? Libya? The Sudan? Algeria?
What is your definition of "bad"? |
My definition of bad in this context is enabling or encouraging ignorant and irrational behavior and beliefs.
There was a recent study of eighteen so-called western democracies which found a direct correlation between religious belief (as measured by church attendance, church contributions, and self-described religiosity) and abortions, STDs, and violent crimes. Guess which nation led in both categories? That's right, the Christian nation, the United States of America. |
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| Stonewall |
Quote: Originally posted by Luther
My definition of bad in this context is enabling or encouraging ignorant and irrational behavior and beliefs.
There was a recent study of eighteen so-called western democracies which found a direct correlation between religious belief (as measured by church attendance, church contributions, and self-described religiosity) and abortions, STDs, and violent crimes. Guess which nation led in both categories? That's right, the Christian nation, the United States of America. |
So, Christianity is just as bad as Islam because a recent study of eighteen so-called western democracies which found a direct correlation between religious belief (as measured by church attendance, church contributions, and self-described religiosity) and abortions, STDs, and violent crimes. Guess which nation led in both categories? That's right, the Christian nation, the United States of America.
????
Do you have anything else? |
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| Fdubya247 |
Quote: Originally posted by Stonedwall
Do you have anything else? |
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| Luther |
Quote: Originally posted by Stonewall
So, Christianity is just as bad as Islam because a recent study of eighteen so-called western democracies which found a direct correlation between religious belief (as measured by church attendance, church contributions, and self-described religiosity) and abortions, STDs, and violent crimes. Guess which nation led in both categories? That's right, the Christian nation, the United States of America.
????
Do you have anything else? |
Sure, I have a lot more. For example, the Catholic church's policy towards Africa is that "AIDS are bad, condoms are worse." |
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| Luther |
| Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, James Dobson, Warren Jeffs, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, the list of Christian luminaries goes on and on. |
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| Stonewall |
Quote: Originally posted by Luther
Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, James Dobson, Warren Jeffs, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, the list of Christian luminaries goes on and on. |
All you are showing are bad actors, if you want to call them that. I could give you, well I think you know.
The Catholic Church is the Catholic Church. I disagree with the policy. It is not worse than Islam. With Islam having sex outside of marriage can get you death. |
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| NC-Stern-Mark |
Quote: Originally posted by Luther
Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, James Dobson, Warren Jeffs, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, the list of Christian luminaries goes on and on. |
When are you going to get to the part about which violent religious group is killing more people and blowing things up?
How about which religion subjugates the women in their society?
How about which religion executes homosexuals in their society?
How about which religion espouses democracy and freedom in their society?
How about which religion has a favorable opinion of OBL?
Let's get to those parts. :) |
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| Luther |
Quote: Originally posted by NC-Stern-Mark
When are you going to get to the part about which violent religious group is killing more people and blowing things up?
How about which religion subjugates the women in their society?
How about which religion executes homosexuals in their society?
How about which religion espouses democracy and freedom in their society?
How about which religion has a favorable opinion of OBL?
Let's get to those parts. :) |
All of those negative attributes of Islam today were true of Christianity for many centuries. |
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| Stonewall |
Quote: Originally posted by Luther
All of those negative attributes of Islam today were true of Christianity for many centuries. |
So what are you saying that in 500 years or so Islam will catch up?
:)
I guess the race is on, will they build nukes or join the 21st Century? Another mystery to ponder... |
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| Luther |
Quote: Originally posted by Stonewall
So what are you saying that in 500 years or so Islam will catch up?
:)
I guess the race is on, will they build nukes or join the 21st Century? Another mystery to ponder... |
Islam was founded about 500 years after Christianity. It makes sense that they would be further behind in their cultural development. I think it should take much less than 500 years for them to catch up, because the West has already paved the way to enlightenment. |
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| Stonewall |
Quote: Originally posted by Luther
Islam was founded about 500 years after Christianity. It makes sense that they would be further behind in their cultural development. I think it should take much less than 500 years for them to catch up, because the West has already paved the way to enlightenment. |
There is a problem to consider. Islam is a religion with no Savior. It's a worked based religion. So, there keeping to the law is what gets them into heaven. There is no reason whatsoever for Islam to change and it has not. Islam has no worth whatsoever outside of it's laws. It is useless. That fact is why moderates have no voice. Moderates just choose to ignore the laws they do not like. |
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| Luther |
Quote: Originally posted by Stonewall
There is a problem to consider. Islam is a religion with no Savior. It's a worked based religion. So, there keeping to the law is what gets them into heaven. There is no reason whatsoever for Islam to change and it has not. Islam has no worth whatsoever outside of it's laws. It is useless. That fact is why moderates have no voice. Moderates just choose to ignore the laws they do not like. |
By enlightenment I mean the realization that there is no salvation through religion. The West still has a long way to go to throw off the shackles of Christianity, but at least the truth is widely known and available in our culture. I agree, enlightenment is not compatible with Islam. |
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