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Ruling on physical jihad...
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| Stonewall |
Ruling on physical jihad
Question:
Is it obligatory for every Muslim to go out for jihad? Or is jihad mustahabb and not obligatory?.
Answer:
Praise be to Allaah.
Physical jihad is the pinnacle of Islam, and some scholars regarded it as the sixth pillar of Islam.
The Muslims have neglected jihad for a long time, so they deserve the punishment of Allaah, to be humiliated, belittled and defeated. That humiliation will never be lifted from them until they come back to their religion as the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When you enter into the ‘aynah transaction, hold the tails of oxen, are content with farming, and give up jihad, Allaah will cause humiliation to prevail over you, and will not withdraw it until you return to your commitment to Islam.” Narrated by Abu Dawood, 2956; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood.
[Translator’s note: ‘Aynah transaction means to sell a product for a known price with deferred payment and then buy it back from the purchaser for a lesser price, so the purchaser will still have to pay the difference in the future]
One of the strangest things to note is that we are living in a time when some of the Muslims are embarrassed to quote the verses and ahaadeeth on jihad in front of their kaafir friends. Their faces turn red because they are too shy to mention the rulings on the jizyah, slavery and killing prisoners of war. They wish that they could erase these verses and ahaadeeth from the Qur’aan and Sunnah so that they would not be criticized by this world with its backward principles despite its claims to be civilized. If they cannot erase them then they try to misinterpret them and distort their meanings so that they suit the whims and desires of their masters. I will not say so that they suit their whims and desires, for they are too weak to have their own whims and desires, and too ignorant. Rather it is the whims and desires of their masters and teachers among the missionaries and colonialists, the enemies of Islam.”
‘Umdat al-Tafseer, 1/46.
The result of that is that we hardly hear anything nowadays apart from the following phrases: world peace … peaceful coexistence … safe borders … a new world order … the calamities of war…
Those who proclaim the verses and ahaadeeth of jihad nowadays are subject to a number of accusations. They are called terrorists, extremists, enemies of peace and bloodthirsty, and are accused of wanting to destroy twentieth century civilization.
This is the unfortunate reality in which the Muslim ummah is living nowadays. That is because we have given up supporting our religion and doing the duties that Allaah has enjoined upon us.
Allaah has commanded us to support His religion and to wage jihad against His enemies.
There are so many verses that enjoin jihad against the mushrikeen and fighting them until all submission is for Allaah alone; they clearly state that it is obligatory and is prescribed and is compulsory. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“Jihaad holy fighting in Allaah’s Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims) though you dislike it, and it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you and that you like a thing which is bad for you. Allaah knows but you do not know”
[al-Baqarah 2:216]
Rulings on jihad
The scholars (may Allaah have mercy on them) have mentioned the rulings on jihad and have stated that jihad is of two types:
1 – Taking the initiative in fighting
This means pursuing the kaafirs in their lands and calling them to Islam and fighting them if they do not agree to submit to the rule of Islam.
This kind of jihad is fard kifaayah (a communal obligation) upon the Muslims. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism, i.e. worshipping others besides Allaah), and the religion (worship) will all be for Allaah Alone [in the whole of the world]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allaah), then certainly, Allaah is All-Seer of what they do”
[al-Anfaal 8:39]
“Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikoon (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush. But if they repent [by rejecting Shirk (polytheism) and accept Islamic Monotheism] and perform As-Salaah (Iqaamat-as-Salaah), and give Zakaah, then leave their way free. Verily, Allaah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful”
[al-Tawbah 9:5]
“and fight against the Mushrikoon (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allaah) collectively as they fight against you collectively. But know that Allaah is with those who are Al-Muttaqoon (the pious”
[al-Tawbah 9:36]
“March forth, whether you are light (being healthy, young and wealthy) or heavy (being ill, old and poor), and strive hard with your wealth and your lives in the Cause of Allaah. This is better for you, if you but knew”
[al-Tawbah 9:41]
It was narrated from Ibn ‘Umar that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I have been commanded to fight the people until they bear witness that there is no god but Allaah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allaah, and establish regular prayer, and pay zakaah, If they do that then their blood and wealth is safe from me, except by the laws of Islam, and their reckoning will be with Allaah.”
Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 24; Muslim, 29.
Muslim (3533) narrated from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever dies without having fought or thought to himself about fighting has died following one of the branches of hypocrisy.”
All of these texts – and many others in the Qur’aan and Sunnah – mean that it is obligatory for the Muslims to wage jihad against the kuffaar and take the initiative in that. The scholars are unanimously agreed that jihad against the kuffar, and seeking them in their own lands, and calling them to Islam, and waging jihad against them if they do not accept Islam or accept paying the jizyah, is obligatory and has not been abrogated.
Shaykh al-Islam (28/249) said:
Everyone who hears the call of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) to the religion of Allaah with which he was sent and does not respond to it must be fought so that there will be no fitnah and so that submission will all be for Allaah.
Ibn ‘Atiyah said (2/43): There remains scholarly consensus that jihad is a communal obligation upon the ummah of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and if some of the Muslims undertake this duty the rest are absolved of responsibility.
2 – Jihad in self-defence.
If the kuffaar attack and occupy a Muslim country, or they prepare to attack the Muslims, then it is obligatory for the Muslims to fight them so as to ward off their evil and foil their plots. Jihad in self-defence is fard ‘ayn (an individual obligation) upon the Muslims, according to scholarly consensus.
Al-Qurtubi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in his Tafseer (8/15):
When jihad becomes inevitable because the enemy has overrun one of the (Muslim) regions, then it becomes obligatory for all the people of that region to mobilize and to go out to fight, whether they are light (being healthy, young and wealthy) or heavy (being ill, old and poor), each according to his abilities, with or without the permission of his parents. No one who is able to go out, warrior or helper, should stay behind. If the people of that country are unable to fight their enemy, then those in nearby and neighbouring countries have to go out to fight, in whatever numbers are required to show support, so that they will know that they have the strength to stand up to them and ward them off. Similarly everyone who knows of their weakness in the face of their enemies and knows that he can go and help them must also go out and fight. All of the Muslims should be united against their enemies. If the people of the area where the enemy has invaded and occupied fight off the enemy themselves, then the others are relieved of that duty. If the enemy approaches the Muslim lands but does not enter, the Muslims must still go out to confront them so that the religion of Allaah will prevail and in order to protect the Muslim homeland and humiliate the enemy. There is no scholarly dispute on this point.
Shaykh al-Islam (28/358-359) said:
If the enemy wants to attack the Muslims then resisting becomes obligatory on all those who are under threat, and those who are not under threat are obliged to help them, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“but if they seek your help in religion, it is your duty to help them except against a people with whom you have a treaty of mutual alliance”
[al-Anfaal 8:72]
And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) also commanded us to help other Muslims. This is obligatory upon each person as much as possible, by fighting himself or by giving financial support, as was the case at the time of al-Khandaq, when Allaah did not grant any concession to anyone not to fight. Rather the Qur’aan condemns those who asked the Prophet for permission [not to fight] on the grounds that their houses were vulnerable when that was not the case, rather they just wanted to flee the battle. This fighting is in order to protect the relihion, and protect lives and honour, and this is absolutely essential.
This is the ruling on physical jihad in Islam, whether that is taking the initiative to call the kuffaar to enter this religion and subjugate them to the rule of Islam, or jihad to defend the religion and honour of the Muslims.
We ask Allaah to bring the Muslims back to their religion.
And Allaah knows best.
Islam Q&A |
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| danrich03 |
| Why the fuck do you spend all your time posting Islamic stuff? Christ. |
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| Stonewall |
Quote: Originally posted by danrich03
Why the fuck do you spend all your time posting Islamic stuff? Christ. |
Muslims are attacking us because of Islam. That is a reason. Education. |
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| Fdubya247 |
Quote: Originally posted by Stonedwall
Muslims are attacking us because of Islam. That is a reason. Education. |
That's the same LIE Patrick Sookhdeo hides behind:
Stumpy -------------> :ass2mouth <------------- Vincenzo Oliveti's article
http://www.sternfannetwork.com/foru...24#post11491324
:opps: |
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| Stonewall |
Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders
World Islamic Front Statement
23 February 1998
Shaykh Usamah Bin-Muhammad Bin-Ladin
Ayman al-Zawahiri, amir of the Jihad Group in Egypt
Abu-Yasir Rifa'i Ahmad Taha, Egyptian Islamic Group
Shaykh Mir Hamzah, secretary of the Jamiat-ul-Ulema-e-Pakistan
Fazlur Rahman, amir of the Jihad Movement in Bangladesh
Praise be to Allah, who revealed the Book, controls the clouds, defeats factionalism, and says in His Book: "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)"; and peace be upon our Prophet, Muhammad Bin-'Abdallah, who said: I have been sent with the sword between my hands to ensure that no one but Allah is worshipped, Allah who put my livelihood under the shadow of my spear and who inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders.
The Arabian Peninsula has never -- since Allah made it flat, created its desert, and encircled it with seas -- been stormed by any forces like the crusader armies spreading in it like locusts, eating its riches and wiping out its plantations. All this is happening at a time in which nations are attacking Muslims like people fighting over a plate of food. In the light of the grave situation and the lack of support, we and you are obliged to discuss current events, and we should all agree on how to settle the matter.
No one argues today about three facts that are known to everyone; we will list them, in order to remind everyone:
First, for over seven years the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places, the Arabian Peninsula, plundering its riches, dictating to its rulers, humiliating its people, terrorizing its neighbors, and turning its bases in the Peninsula into a spearhead through which to fight the neighboring Muslim peoples.
If some people have in the past argued about the fact of the occupation, all the people of the Peninsula have now acknowledged it. The best proof of this is the Americans' continuing aggression against the Iraqi people using the Peninsula as a staging post, even though all its rulers are against their territories being used to that end, but they are helpless.
Second, despite the great devastation inflicted on the Iraqi people by the crusader-Zionist alliance, and despite the huge number of those killed, which has exceeded 1 million... despite all this, the Americans are once against trying to repeat the horrific massacres, as though they are not content with the protracted blockade imposed after the ferocious war or the fragmentation and devastation.
So here they come to annihilate what is left of this people and to humiliate their Muslim neighbors.
Third, if the Americans' aims behind these wars are religious and economic, the aim is also to serve the Jews' petty state and divert attention from its occupation of Jerusalem and murder of Muslims there. The best proof of this is their eagerness to destroy Iraq, the strongest neighboring Arab state, and their endeavor to fragment all the states of the region such as Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Sudan into paper statelets and through their disunion and weakness to guarantee Israel's survival and the continuation of the brutal crusade occupation of the Peninsula.
All these crimes and sins committed by the Americans are a clear declaration of war on Allah, his messenger, and Muslims. And ulema have throughout Islamic history unanimously agreed that the jihad is an individual duty if the enemy destroys the Muslim countries. This was revealed by Imam Bin-Qadamah in "Al- Mughni," Imam al-Kisa'i in "Al-Bada'i," al-Qurtubi in his interpretation, and the shaykh of al-Islam in his books, where he said: "As for the fighting to repulse [an enemy], it is aimed at defending sanctity and religion, and it is a duty as agreed [by the ulema]. Nothing is more sacred than belief except repulsing an enemy who is attacking religion and life."
On that basis, and in compliance with Allah's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims:
The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah."
This is in addition to the words of Almighty Allah: "And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)? -- women and children, whose cry is: 'Our Lord, rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will help!'"
We -- with Allah's help -- call on every Muslim who believes in Allah and wishes to be rewarded to comply with Allah's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan's U.S. troops and the devil's supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson.
Almighty Allah said: "O ye who believe, give your response to Allah and His Apostle, when He calleth you to that which will give you life. And know that Allah cometh between a man and his heart, and that it is He to whom ye shall all be gathered."
Almighty Allah also says: "O ye who believe, what is the matter with you, that when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling so heavily to the earth! Do ye prefer the life of this world to the hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For Allah hath power over all things."
Almighty Allah also says: "So lose no heart, nor fall into despair. For ye must gain mastery if ye are true in faith." |
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| artechba |
Quote: Originally posted by Stonewall
Muslims are attacking us because of Islam. That is a reason. Education. |
Educate yourself. Stop bothering us with your Copy-Paste bullshit |
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| mingmen |
Quote: Originally posted by Stonewall
Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders
World Islamic Front Statement
23 February 1998
Shaykh Usamah Bin-Muhammad Bin-Ladin
Ayman al-Zawahiri, amir of the Jihad Group in Egypt
Abu-Yasir Rifa'i Ahmad Taha, Egyptian Islamic Group
Shaykh Mir Hamzah, secretary of the Jamiat-ul-Ulema-e-Pakistan
Fazlur Rahman, amir of the Jihad Movement in Bangladesh
Praise be to Allah, who revealed the Book, controls the clouds, defeats factionalism, and says in His Book: "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)"; and peace be upon our Prophet, Muhammad Bin-'Abdallah, who said: I have been sent with the sword between my hands to ensure that no one but Allah is worshipped, Allah who put my livelihood under the shadow of my spear and who inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders.
The Arabian Peninsula has never -- since Allah made it flat, created its desert, and encircled it with seas -- been stormed by any forces like the crusader armies spreading in it like locusts, eating its riches and wiping out its plantations. All this is happening at a time in which nations are attacking Muslims like people fighting over a plate of food. In the light of the grave situation and the lack of support, we and you are obliged to discuss current events, and we should all agree on how to settle the matter.
No one argues today about three facts that are known to everyone; we will list them, in order to remind everyone:
First, for over seven years the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places, the Arabian Peninsula, plundering its riches, dictating to its rulers, humiliating its people, terrorizing its neighbors, and turning its bases in the Peninsula into a spearhead through which to fight the neighboring Muslim peoples.
If some people have in the past argued about the fact of the occupation, all the people of the Peninsula have now acknowledged it. The best proof of this is the Americans' continuing aggression against the Iraqi people using the Peninsula as a staging post, even though all its rulers are against their territories being used to that end, but they are helpless.
Second, despite the great devastation inflicted on the Iraqi people by the crusader-Zionist alliance, and despite the huge number of those killed, which has exceeded 1 million... despite all this, the Americans are once against trying to repeat the horrific massacres, as though they are not content with the protracted blockade imposed after the ferocious war or the fragmentation and devastation.
So here they come to annihilate what is left of this people and to humiliate their Muslim neighbors.
Third, if the Americans' aims behind these wars are religious and economic, the aim is also to serve the Jews' petty state and divert attention from its occupation of Jerusalem and murder of Muslims there. The best proof of this is their eagerness to destroy Iraq, the strongest neighboring Arab state, and their endeavor to fragment all the states of the region such as Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Sudan into paper statelets and through their disunion and weakness to guarantee Israel's survival and the continuation of the brutal crusade occupation of the Peninsula.
All these crimes and sins committed by the Americans are a clear declaration of war on Allah, his messenger, and Muslims. And ulema have throughout Islamic history unanimously agreed that the jihad is an individual duty if the enemy destroys the Muslim countries. This was revealed by Imam Bin-Qadamah in "Al- Mughni," Imam al-Kisa'i in "Al-Bada'i," al-Qurtubi in his interpretation, and the shaykh of al-Islam in his books, where he said: "As for the fighting to repulse [an enemy], it is aimed at defending sanctity and religion, and it is a duty as agreed [by the ulema]. Nothing is more sacred than belief except repulsing an enemy who is attacking religion and life."
On that basis, and in compliance with Allah's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims:
The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah."
This is in addition to the words of Almighty Allah: "And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)? -- women and children, whose cry is: 'Our Lord, rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will help!'"
We -- with Allah's help -- call on every Muslim who believes in Allah and wishes to be rewarded to comply with Allah's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan's U.S. troops and the devil's supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson.
Almighty Allah said: "O ye who believe, give your response to Allah and His Apostle, when He calleth you to that which will give you life. And know that Allah cometh between a man and his heart, and that it is He to whom ye shall all be gathered."
Almighty Allah also says: "O ye who believe, what is the matter with you, that when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling so heavily to the earth! Do ye prefer the life of this world to the hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For Allah hath power over all things."
Almighty Allah also says: "So lose no heart, nor fall into despair. For ye must gain mastery if ye are true in faith." |
so is that OBL's fatwa? :jj: |
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| Fdubya247 |
Exactly....:
No one argues today about three facts that are known to everyone; we will list them, in order to remind everyone:
First, for over seven years the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places, the Arabian Peninsula, plundering its riches, dictating to its rulers, humiliating its people, terrorizing its neighbors, and turning its bases in the Peninsula into a spearhead through which to fight the neighboring Muslim peoples.
If some people have in the past argued about the fact of the occupation, all the people of the Peninsula have now acknowledged it. The best proof of this is the Americans' continuing aggression against the Iraqi people using the Peninsula as a staging post, even though all its rulers are against their territories being used to that end, but they are helpless.
Second, despite the great devastation inflicted on the Iraqi people by the crusader-Zionist alliance, and despite the huge number of those killed, which has exceeded 1 million... despite all this, the Americans are once against trying to repeat the horrific massacres, as though they are not content with the protracted blockade imposed after the ferocious war or the fragmentation and devastation.
So here they come to annihilate what is left of this people and to humiliate their Muslim neighbors.
Third, if the Americans' aims behind these wars are religious and economic, the aim is also to serve the Jews' petty state and divert attention from its occupation of Jerusalem and murder of Muslims there. The best proof of this is their eagerness to destroy Iraq, the strongest neighboring Arab state, and their endeavor to fragment all the states of the region such as Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Sudan into paper statelets and through their disunion and weakness to guarantee Israel's survival and the continuation of the brutal crusade occupation of the Peninsula.
All these crimes and sins committed by the Americans are a clear declaration of war on Allah, his messenger, and Muslims.
Absolutely NOTHING to do with religion at all. Thanks for the tip.
:opps: |
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| Stonewall |
Quote: Originally posted by Fdubya247
Exactly....:
No one argues today about three facts that are known to everyone; we will list them, in order to remind everyone:
First, for over seven years the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places, the Arabian Peninsula, plundering its riches, dictating to its rulers, humiliating its people, terrorizing its neighbors, and turning its bases in the Peninsula into a spearhead through which to fight the neighboring Muslim peoples.
If some people have in the past argued about the fact of the occupation, all the people of the Peninsula have now acknowledged it. The best proof of this is the Americans' continuing aggression against the Iraqi people using the Peninsula as a staging post, even though all its rulers are against their territories being used to that end, but they are helpless.
Second, despite the great devastation inflicted on the Iraqi people by the crusader-Zionist alliance, and despite the huge number of those killed, which has exceeded 1 million... despite all this, the Americans are once against trying to repeat the horrific massacres, as though they are not content with the protracted blockade imposed after the ferocious war or the fragmentation and devastation.
So here they come to annihilate what is left of this people and to humiliate their Muslim neighbors.
Third, if the Americans' aims behind these wars are religious and economic, the aim is also to serve the Jews' petty state and divert attention from its occupation of Jerusalem and murder of Muslims there. The best proof of this is their eagerness to destroy Iraq, the strongest neighboring Arab state, and their endeavor to fragment all the states of the region such as Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Sudan into paper statelets and through their disunion and weakness to guarantee Israel's survival and the continuation of the brutal crusade occupation of the Peninsula.
All these crimes and sins committed by the Americans are a clear declaration of war on Allah, his messenger, and Muslims.
Absolutely NOTHING to do with religion at all. Thanks for the tip.
:opps: |
Why didn't you paste the whole thing? Oh that's right...Denial. |
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| Fdubya247 |
Quote: Originally posted by mingmen
so is that OBL's fatwa? :jj: |
Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders
World Islamic Front Statement
23 February 1998
Shaykh Usamah Bin-Muhammad Bin-Ladin
:giggle: |
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| mingmen |
Quote: Originally posted by Fdubya247
Exactly....:
No one argues today about three facts that are known to everyone; we will list them, in order to remind everyone:
First, for over seven years the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places, the Arabian Peninsula, plundering its riches, dictating to its rulers, humiliating its people, terrorizing its neighbors, and turning its bases in the Peninsula into a spearhead through which to fight the neighboring Muslim peoples.
If some people have in the past argued about the fact of the occupation, all the people of the Peninsula have now acknowledged it. The best proof of this is the Americans' continuing aggression against the Iraqi people using the Peninsula as a staging post, even though all its rulers are against their territories being used to that end, but they are helpless.
Second, despite the great devastation inflicted on the Iraqi people by the crusader-Zionist alliance, and despite the huge number of those killed, which has exceeded 1 million... despite all this, the Americans are once against trying to repeat the horrific massacres, as though they are not content with the protracted blockade imposed after the ferocious war or the fragmentation and devastation.
So here they come to annihilate what is left of this people and to humiliate their Muslim neighbors.
Third, if the Americans' aims behind these wars are religious and economic, the aim is also to serve the Jews' petty state and divert attention from its occupation of Jerusalem and murder of Muslims there. The best proof of this is their eagerness to destroy Iraq, the strongest neighboring Arab state, and their endeavor to fragment all the states of the region such as Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Sudan into paper statelets and through their disunion and weakness to guarantee Israel's survival and the continuation of the brutal crusade occupation of the Peninsula.
All these crimes and sins committed by the Americans are a clear declaration of war on Allah, his messenger, and Muslims.
Absolutely NOTHING to do with religion at all. Thanks for the tip.
:opps: |
:bigclap:
nice find :yes: |
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| Fdubya247 |
Quote: Originally posted by Stonedwall
Why didn't you paste the whole thing? Oh that's right...Denial. |
The rest is irrelevant rhetoric and hyperbole. There are three specific reasons that are quite plainly laid out.
:crazy:
Thanks for exposing your own ignorance again, Fool.
:hw: |
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| mingmen |
Quote: Originally posted by Stonewall
Why didn't you paste the whole thing? Oh that's right...Denial. |
hug the tar baby :p |
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| mingmen |
Quote: Originally posted by Stonewall
Muslims are attacking us because of Islam. That is a reason. Education. |
:stilllaughing: |
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| Stonewall |
Quote: Originally posted by Fdubya247
The rest is irrelevant rhetoric and hyperbole. There are three specific reasons that are quite plainly laid out.
:crazy:
Thanks for exposing your own ignorance again, Fool.
:hw: |
Even if we use your shortened version it is still clear that Islam is the reason.
Here is a couple quotes...
the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places
All these crimes and sins committed by the Americans are a clear declaration of war on Allah, his messenger, and Muslims.
It's the Islam stupid.
We don't have Japanese attacking because of bases in Japan. We don't have Germans attacking. We don't have Koreans attacking. |
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| mingmen |
good grief :p
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| Fdubya247 |
Quote: Originally posted by Stonedwall
Even if we use your shortened version it is still clear that Islam is the reason.
Here is a couple quotes...
the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places
All these crimes and sins committed by the Americans are a clear declaration of war on Allah, his messenger, and Muslims.
It's the Islam stupid.
We don't have Japanese attacking because of bases in Japan. We don't have Germans attacking. We don't have Koreans attacking. |
:lol::lol::lol:
1. "occupying the lands".
2. "these crimes and sins committed", none of which had anything intrinsically to do with religion.
3. Japan, Germany, and Korea are entirely different situations.
*FLUSH*
*FLUSH*
*FLUSH*
:crapper: |
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| Stonewall |
Quote: Originally posted by Fdubya247
:lol::lol::lol:
1. "occupying the lands".
2. "these crimes and sins committed", none of which had anything intrinsically to do with religion.
3. Japan, Germany, and Korea are entirely different situations.
*FLUSH*
*FLUSH*
*FLUSH*
:crapper: |
First you show your dishonesty by not posting the whole Statement. Because it ruined your position. Now I ruin your edited bin Laden statement and now your down to "occupying the lands" and "these crimes and sins committed"... HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! What an idiot you are.
:)
Japan, Germany, and Korea are different... they are non-Muslim. |
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| mingmen |
Quote: Originally posted by Stonewall
First you show your dishonesty by not posting the whole Statement. Because it ruined your position. Now I ruin your edited bin Laden statement and now your down to "occupying the lands" and "these crimes and sins committed"... HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! What an idiot you are.
:)
Japan, Germany, and Korea are different... they are non-Muslim. |
hear that hollow ring? :hhh:
that means it's ripe |
|
|
| Fdubya247 |
Quote: Originally posted by Stonedwall
First you show your dishonesty by not posting the whole Statement. Because it ruined your position. Now I ruin your edited bin Laden statement and now your down to "occupying the lands" and "these crimes and sins committed"... HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! What an idiot you are. |
:crazy:
Merely shaving off the irrelevant for you. Its obvious you are barely literate. Yes, after "occupation" everything else is just extraneous hyperbole. Yes, "these crimes" referred to the 3 points highlighted above.
:rolleyes:
Quote: Originally posted by Stonedwall
Japan, Germany, and Korea are different... they are non-Muslim. |
We aren't "occupying" them.
:idea: |
|
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| nunpuncher |
good work fdub
im sure your brothers in the internet chatrooms will say extra prayers for you |
|
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| Stonewall |
Quote: Originally posted by Fdubya247
:crazy:
Merely shaving off the irrelevant for you. Its obvious you are barely literate. Yes, after "occupation" everything else is just extraneous hyperbole. Yes, "these crimes" referred to the 3 points highlighted above.
:rolleyes:
We aren't "occupying" them.
:idea: |
Irrelevant to you. Not to al Qaeda.
We were not in occupation of Saudi Arabia. We had bases there just like Korea, Japan, and Germany. |
|
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| hooknoseitalian |
Quote: Originally posted by Stonewall
Muslims are attacking us because of Islam. That is a reason. Education. |
"And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do."
there are several ways to translate the qur'an. unless you speak arabic you have no business "educating" people.
try these translations out for size, provided by the university of southern california...
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/ |
|
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| Stonewall |
Quote: Originally posted by hooknoseitalian
"And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do."
there are several ways to translate the qur'an. unless you speak arabic you have no business "educating" people.
try these translations out for size, provided by the university of southern california...
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/ |
If you have a problem with that ruling then post the problem. Maybe even post the email you send to the Islam Q&A site, if you send one.
I always encourage people to learn Islam. It's not me who must educate them, they are better off learning from Muslims. When I am asked a question I look to the Muslims for answers. |
|
|
| hooknoseitalian |
Quote: Originally posted by Stonewall
If you have a problem with that ruling then post the problem. Maybe even post the email you send to the Islam Q&A site, if you send one.
I always encourage people to learn Islam. It's not me who must educate them, they are better off learning from Muslims. When I am asked a question I look to the Muslims for answers. |
"The Qur'an and Sunnah are the only two mediums by which Allah has directly taught us about Islam. This leads us to the following simple but critical principle:
If any man or woman engages in a belief or action which clearly contradicts the Qur'an or Sunnah, then that belief or action cannot be thought of as `Islamic'.
This rule applies whether the man or woman is Muslim or non-Muslim. Hence, we cannot equate Islam and the Muslims. Islam is the way of life; Muslims are people who claim to follow that way of life. A Muslim may claim to follow Islam, but be wrong. In the context of misconceptions, we can restate the above principle in a slightly different way:
Some misconceptions about Islam are due to the wrong beliefs and actions of Muslims, and others are due to a significant lack of understanding and false stereotyping by non-Muslims."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/notisla...onceptions.html
through that link you'll find ten misconceptions about Islam. I encourage you to educate yourself. |
|
|
| Stonewall |
Quote: Originally posted by hooknoseitalian
"The Qur'an and Sunnah are the only two mediums by which Allah has directly taught us about Islam. This leads us to the following simple but critical principle:
If any man or woman engages in a belief or action which clearly contradicts the Qur'an or Sunnah, then that belief or action cannot be thought of as `Islamic'.
This rule applies whether the man or woman is Muslim or non-Muslim. Hence, we cannot equate Islam and the Muslims. Islam is the way of life; Muslims are people who claim to follow that way of life. A Muslim may claim to follow Islam, but be wrong. In the context of misconceptions, we can restate the above principle in a slightly different way:
Some misconceptions about Islam are due to the wrong beliefs and actions of Muslims, and others are due to a significant lack of understanding and false stereotyping by non-Muslims."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/notisla...onceptions.html
through that link you'll find ten misconceptions about Islam. I encourage you to educate yourself. |
I have been through that site many times and use that site on a regular basis.
If you think I have something wrong then tell me what that is. |
|
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| hooknoseitalian |
Quote: Originally posted by Stonewall
I have been through that site many times and use that site on a regular basis.
If you think I have something wrong then tell me what that is. |
I already have but you don't want to accept it. you're not doing anybody any favors by posting the crap that you post. it's not factual, it's not educational, it's not responsible. you might as well be posting white power propaganda from a KKK site. how intelligent do you want to be? it's up to you. you don't have to settle for ignorant if you don't want to. |
|
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| hooknoseitalian |
Quote: Originally posted by Stonewall
I have been through that site many times and use that site on a regular basis.
|
:bs: |
|
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| Stonewall |
Quote: Originally posted by hooknoseitalian
I already have but you don't want to accept it. you're not doing anybody any favors by posting the crap that you post. it's not factual, it's not educational, it's not responsible. you might as well be posting white power propaganda from a KKK site. how intelligent do you want to be? it's up to you. you don't have to settle for ignorant if you don't want to. |
I'm not sure what to accept. I posted a ruling from a Muslim site. Then Osama bin Laden's statement.
As I said if you have a specific complaint that you can voice than we can go from there.
I don't think you do otherwise you would. You don't like what I am doing, but these things should be known and understood by Americans. We should be fully aware of what type of people we allow into this country. What type of 'way of life' Muslims offer. |
|
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| hooknoseitalian |
Quote: Originally posted by Stonewall
I'm not sure what to accept. I posted a ruling from a Muslim site. Then Osama bin Laden's statement.
As I said if you have a specific complaint that you can voice than we can go from there.
I don't think you do otherwise you would. You don't like what I am doing, but these things should be known and understood by Americans. We should be fully aware of what type of people we allow into this country. What type of 'way of life' Muslims offer. |
if you read my posts you should be able to understand my specific complaint. you seem to be accepting a radical muslim viewpoint and reiterating it as islamic fact. what should be understood by Americans is the reality of the situation, that there are extreme assholes who distort islam to justify their acts of aggression against a country that threatens their way of life by occupying their lands and taking the wealth that was given to them by their god/allah.
you put all muslims in this radical islamic category and that's just dangerous. you likely deal with muslims on a day to day basis. has anyone blown you up yet? cut off your head or fingers? so how can you say these are the "type of people" we're allowing into this country? how can you say these extremes are the muslim "way of life"? Do you not know how widespread Islam is? If that were the way all muslims believed, the rest of the world would have zero chance of survival. |
|
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| Stonewall |
Quote: Originally posted by hooknoseitalian
if you read my posts you should be able to understand my specific complaint. you seem to be accepting a radical muslim viewpoint and reiterating it as islamic fact. what should be understood by Americans is the reality of the situation, that there are extreme assholes who distort islam to justify their acts of aggression against a country that threatens their way of life by occupying their lands and taking the wealth that was given to them by their god/allah.
you put all muslims in this radical islamic category and that's just dangerous. you likely deal with muslims on a day to day basis. has anyone blown you up yet? cut off your head or fingers? so how can you say these are the "type of people" we're allowing into this country? how can you say these extremes are the muslim "way of life"? Do you not know how widespread Islam is? If that were the way all muslims believed, the rest of the world would have zero chance of survival. |
What is radical in the ruling on Jihad?
Where is the distortion? |
|
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| NC-Stern-Mark |
Quote: Originally posted by hooknoseitalian
if you read my posts you should be able to understand my specific complaint. you seem to be accepting a radical muslim viewpoint and reiterating it as islamic fact. what should be understood by Americans is the reality of the situation, that there are extreme assholes who distort islam to justify their acts of aggression against a country that threatens their way of life by occupying their lands and taking the wealth that was given to them by their god/allah.
you put all muslims in this radical islamic category and that's just dangerous. you likely deal with muslims on a day to day basis. has anyone blown you up yet? cut off your head or fingers? so how can you say these are the "type of people" we're allowing into this country? how can you say these extremes are the muslim "way of life"? Do you not know how widespread Islam is? If that were the way all muslims believed, the rest of the world would have zero chance of survival. |
Stonewall never said all Muslims are terrorists. Ask him.
You my friend continue to deny the reality that Muslims slaughter thousands of innocent people every year in the name of Allah.
And they do this in just about every country in the world. Including Islamic states.
That goes against the "Occupier Theory." |
|
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| hooknoseitalian |
Quote: Originally posted by Stonewall
What is radical in the ruling on Jihad?
Where is the distortion? |
:shake: you are hopeless. i pointed out the distortion to you already.
i shall fight copy/paste with copy/paste. you probably won't learn anything but maybe someone else will.
-------------------------------
Misconception 7
Islam tolerates the killing of innocents because:
o Muslims can be terrorists
o Muslims engage in `holy wars' (jihad)
o Islam spread by the sword
o it has a harsh and cruel judicial system
This misconception is one of the most widely held misconceptions about Islam today. And yet in the Qur'an, the Creator unambiguously states (translation),
[17:33] Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand retaliation or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life, for he is helped (by the Law)
Based on this verse, it is Islamically unlawful to murder anyone who is innocent of certain crimes. It is well to remember at this point the distinction made above between Qur'an and Sunnah, and the Muslims: only the Qur'an and Sunnah are guaranteed to be in accordance with what the Creator desires, whereas the Muslims may possibly deviate. Hence, if any Muslim kills an innocent person, that Muslim has committed a grave sin, and certainly the action cannot be claimed to have been done "in the name of Islam."
It should be clear, then, that "Muslim terrorist" is almost an oxymoron: by killing innocent people, a Muslim is commiting an awesome sin, and Allah is Justice personified. This phrase is offensive and demeaning of Islam, and it should be avoided. It is hoped that as the general level of public awareness and understanding of Islam increases, people will keep "terrorism" and "Islam" separate from each other, not to be used in the same phrase.
Another reason advanced in support of the misconception is that the Creator has imposed `jihad' on us. The term "holy war" is from the time of the Crusades and originated in Europe as a rallying cry against the Muslims in Jerusalem. Jihad is an Arabic word meaning struggle, but in the context of many verses in the Qur'an, it carries the meaning of military struggle, or war. Allah gradually introduced the obligation of military struggle to the Muslim community at the time of the Messenger (saas). The first verse ever revealed in that connection is as follows (translation),
[22:39] Permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able to assist them;
This verse lays down the precondition for all war in Islam: there must exist certain oppressive conditions on the people. The Creator unequivocally orders us to fight oppression and persecution, even at the expense of bloodshed as the following verse shows (translation),
[2:190-192] And fight in the cause of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits. And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from where they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque (in Makkah) until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the reward of the unbelievers. But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.
As one might imagine, the method of military struggle has been clearly and extensively defined in the Qur'an and Sunnah. Since this subject is a huge one, we simply summarize part of it by noting that it is unlawful to kill women, children, the infirm, the old, and the innocent. From the Sunnah, specifically in the study of the Sunnah called Sahih Bukhari, we find:
[4:52:257] Narrated 'Abdullah: During some of the Ghazawat of the Prophet a woman was found killed. Allah's Apostle disapproved the killing of women and children.
A related misconception to jihad is often propagated by Muslims who say that "Jihad is only for self-defense of physical borders." The Qur'an and Sunnah refute this notion categorically. As the verses cited above show, jihad is obligatory wherever there is injustice, and Muslims need not acknowledge imaginary lines around the earth when it comes to upholding this obligation. The Messenger of Allah (saas) has also commented on this extensively in the Sunnah. From the study of the Sunnah called Sahih Bukhari, we find that,
[4:52:65] Narrated Abu Musa: A man came to the Prophet and asked, "A man fights for war booty; another fights for fame and a third fights for showing off; which of them fights in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights that Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause."
Hence, the Creator obligates us to fight wherever people are being grossly deprived of freely hearing or practicing the Message of Allah as contained in the Qur'an and Sunnah. Sayyed Qutb, a famous Muslim scholar eloquently discusses the notion of jihad and self-defense in his book Milestones,
"If we insist on calling Islamic jihad a defensive movement, then we must change the meaning of the word `defense' and mean by it `defense of man' against all those elements which limit his freedom. These elements take the form of beliefs and concepts, as well as of political systems, based on economic, racial, or class distinction."
A third reason often cited for the misconception about Islam which says that this way of life tolerates the killing of innocents is that the judicial system of Islam is unnecessarily harsh. This reason is weak in two respects. First, it presupposes that human beings are more just and more merciful than the Creator, and therefore we can change the law. Second, it is often based on gross oversimplifications of Islamic law, such as saying "all thieves get their hands cut off."
The Qur'an and Sunnah make it clear that the law of retaliation (or equality) governs us for murder and physical injury, but forgiveness is better as the following verses from the Qur'an show (translation),
[2:178] O you who believe! the law of equality is prescribed to you in cases of murder: the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the woman for the woman. But if any remission is made by the brother of the slain, then prosecution (for the bloodwit) should be made according to usage, and payment should be made to him in a good manner; this is an alleviation from your Lord and a mercy; so whoever exceeds the limit after this he shall have a painful chastisement.
[42:40-43] The recompense for an injury is an injury equal thereto (in degree): but if a person forgives and makes reconciliation, his reward is due from Allah: for (Allah) loves not those who do wrong. But indeed if any do help and defend themselves after a wrong (done) to them, against such there is no cause of blame. The blame is only against those who oppress men and insolently transgress beyond bounds through the land, defying right and justice: for such there will be a grievous penalty. And whoever is patient and forgiving, these most surely are actions due to courage.
The Creator ordained the law of retaliation on us knowing full well that we might question it. In many non-Muslim societies today, there are ongoing debates about the death penalty. In Islam, this discussion is moot: the Creator has decided the matter for us. He has however given us an interesting verse in the Qur'an which advises to consider the matter carefully if we want to understand it (translation follows),
[2:179] And there is life for you in (the law of) retaliation, O people of understanding, that you may guard yourselves.
Most people are also unaware of the stringent conditions which must be met for the law of retaliation to be applicable. The Sunnah is full of examples of the Messenger of Allah showing us when the law's preconditions were fulfilled. For example, a thief is only liable to lose his or her hand if the item stolen exceeds a certain value, and if it is proven that the item was taken from its normal resting place. Stealing food is not punishable by the loss of one's hand, and other items are exempt as well. This is just an example of how gingerly the law is applied in Islam.
Finally, another reason advanced for this prevalent misconception is that Islam `spread by the sword'. It should be clear by now that we must always distinguish between the Qur'an and Sunnah and the Muslims when it comes to determining what the Creator has asked of us. Allah has stated clearly in the Qur'an (translation),
[2:256] There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever rejects Satan (and what he calls to) and believes in Allah, he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handhold, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.
Hence, it is impossible to accept Islam under duress. Even if misguided Muslims were to try to `force' Islam somehow on others, it would not be accepted by the Creator based on this verse.
Historical arguments that try to demonstrate that Muslims did not `convert others by force' are actually secondary to the argument given above. However, it is worth noting that historically, Islam did spread by peaceful means. The Message of the Creator was conveyed to Africa and to southeast Asia by trading Muslims, and today the largest Muslim country in the world is Indonesia. The military expeditions that led to the conquest of large swathes of territory in Europe and central Asia were all marked by tolerance of other creeds and faith.
Again, it is important to remember that Allah declares it IMPOSSIBLE that Islam can be forced on a person, hence Muslims find it useless to try! |
|
|
| hooknoseitalian |
Quote: Originally posted by NC-Stern-Mark
Stonewall never said all Muslims are terrorists. Ask him.
You my friend continue to deny the reality that Muslims slaughter thousands of innocent people every year in the name of Allah.
And they do this in just about every country in the world. Including Islamic states.
That goes against the "Occupier Theory." |
i'm not denying anything. those who kill innocent people are not following islam. stonewall is making stereotypical generalizations about muslim people. how does this educate anyone or help anything? |
|
|
| hooknoseitalian |
Quote: Originally posted by NC-Stern-Mark
Stonewall never said all Muslims are terrorists. Ask him. |
Quote: Originally posted by Stonewall
Muslims are attacking us because of Islam. |
Quote: Originally posted by Stonewall
We should be fully aware of what type of people we allow into this country. What type of 'way of life' Muslims offer. |
i don't see him making any distinction between the millions of peaceful muslims who follow islam and those who are misguided enough to resort to terroristic violence. |
|
|
| Stonewall |
Quote: Originally posted by hooknoseitalian
:shake: you are hopeless. i pointed out the distortion to you already.
i shall fight copy/paste with copy/paste. you probably won't learn anything but maybe someone else will.
-------------------------------
Misconception 7
Islam tolerates the killing of innocents because:
o Muslims can be terrorists
o Muslims engage in `holy wars' (jihad)
o Islam spread by the sword
o it has a harsh and cruel judicial system
This misconception is one of the most widely held misconceptions about Islam today. And yet in the Qur'an, the Creator unambiguously states (translation),
[17:33] Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand retaliation or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life, for he is helped (by the Law)
Based on this verse, it is Islamically unlawful to murder anyone who is innocent of certain crimes. It is well to remember at this point the distinction made above between Qur'an and Sunnah, and the Muslims: only the Qur'an and Sunnah are guaranteed to be in accordance with what the Creator desires, whereas the Muslims may possibly deviate. Hence, if any Muslim kills an innocent person, that Muslim has committed a grave sin, and certainly the action cannot be claimed to have been done "in the name of Islam."
It should be clear, then, that "Muslim terrorist" is almost an oxymoron: by killing innocent people, a Muslim is commiting an awesome sin, and Allah is Justice personified. This phrase is offensive and demeaning of Islam, and it should be avoided. It is hoped that as the general level of public awareness and understanding of Islam increases, people will keep "terrorism" and "Islam" separate from each other, not to be used in the same phrase.
Another reason advanced in support of the misconception is that the Creator has imposed `jihad' on us. The term "holy war" is from the time of the Crusades and originated in Europe as a rallying cry against the Muslims in Jerusalem. Jihad is an Arabic word meaning struggle, but in the context of many verses in the Qur'an, it carries the meaning of military struggle, or war. Allah gradually introduced the obligation of military struggle to the Muslim community at the time of the Messenger (saas). The first verse ever revealed in that connection is as follows (translation),
[22:39] Permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able to assist them;
This verse lays down the precondition for all war in Islam: there must exist certain oppressive conditions on the people. The Creator unequivocally orders us to fight oppression and persecution, even at the expense of bloodshed as the following verse shows (translation),
[2:190-192] And fight in the cause of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits. And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from where they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque (in Makkah) until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the reward of the unbelievers. But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.
As one might imagine, the method of military struggle has been clearly and extensively defined in the Qur'an and Sunnah. Since this subject is a huge one, we simply summarize part of it by noting that it is unlawful to kill women, children, the infirm, the old, and the innocent. From the Sunnah, specifically in the study of the Sunnah called Sahih Bukhari, we find:
[4:52:257] Narrated 'Abdullah: During some of the Ghazawat of the Prophet a woman was found killed. Allah's Apostle disapproved the killing of women and children.
A related misconception to jihad is often propagated by Muslims who say that "Jihad is only for self-defense of physical borders." The Qur'an and Sunnah refute this notion categorically. As the verses cited above show, jihad is obligatory wherever there is injustice, and Muslims need not acknowledge imaginary lines around the earth when it comes to upholding this obligation. The Messenger of Allah (saas) has also commented on this extensively in the Sunnah. From the study of the Sunnah called Sahih Bukhari, we find that,
[4:52:65] Narrated Abu Musa: A man came to the Prophet and asked, "A man fights for war booty; another fights for fame and a third fights for showing off; which of them fights in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights that Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause."
Hence, the Creator obligates us to fight wherever people are being grossly deprived of freely hearing or practicing the Message of Allah as contained in the Qur'an and Sunnah. Sayyed Qutb, a famous Muslim scholar eloquently discusses the notion of jihad and self-defense in his book Milestones,
"If we insist on calling Islamic jihad a defensive movement, then we must change the meaning of the word `defense' and mean by it `defense of man' against all those elements which limit his freedom. These elements take the form of beliefs and concepts, as well as of political systems, based on economic, racial, or class distinction."
A third reason often cited for the misconception about Islam which says that this way of life tolerates the killing of innocents is that the judicial system of Islam is unnecessarily harsh. This reason is weak in two respects. First, it presupposes that human beings are more just and more merciful than the Creator, and therefore we can change the law. Second, it is often based on gross oversimplifications of Islamic law, such as saying "all thieves get their hands cut off."
The Qur'an and Sunnah make it clear that the law of retaliation (or equality) governs us for murder and physical injury, but forgiveness is better as the following verses from the Qur'an show (translation),
[2:178] O you who believe! the law of equality is prescribed to you in cases of murder: the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the woman for the woman. But if any remission is made by the brother of the slain, then prosecution (for the bloodwit) should be made according to usage, and payment should be made to him in a good manner; this is an alleviation from your Lord and a mercy; so whoever exceeds the limit after this he shall have a painful chastisement.
[42:40-43] The recompense for an injury is an injury equal thereto (in degree): but if a person forgives and makes reconciliation, his reward is due from Allah: for (Allah) loves not those who do wrong. But indeed if any do help and defend themselves after a wrong (done) to them, against such there is no cause of blame. The blame is only against those who oppress men and insolently transgress beyond bounds through the land, defying right and justice: for such there will be a grievous penalty. And whoever is patient and forgiving, these most surely are actions due to courage.
The Creator ordained the law of retaliation on us knowing full well that we might question it. In many non-Muslim societies today, there are ongoing debates about the death penalty. In Islam, this discussion is moot: the Creator has decided the matter for us. He has however given us an interesting verse in the Qur'an which advises to consider the matter carefully if we want to understand it (translation follows),
[2:179] And there is life for you in (the law of) retaliation, O people of understanding, that you may guard yourselves.
Most people are also unaware of the stringent conditions which must be met for the law of retaliation to be applicable. The Sunnah is full of examples of the Messenger of Allah showing us when the law's preconditions were fulfilled. For example, a thief is only liable to lose his or her hand if the item stolen exceeds a certain value, and if it is proven that the item was taken from its normal resting place. Stealing food is not punishable by the loss of one's hand, and other items are exempt as well. This is just an example of how gingerly the law is applied in Islam.
Finally, another reason advanced for this prevalent misconception is that Islam `spread by the sword'. It should be clear by now that we must always distinguish between the Qur'an and Sunnah and the Muslims when it comes to determining what the Creator has asked of us. Allah has stated clearly in the Qur'an (translation),
[2:256] There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever rejects Satan (and what he calls to) and believes in Allah, he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handhold, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.
Hence, it is impossible to accept Islam under duress. Even if misguided Muslims were to try to `force' Islam somehow on others, it would not be accepted by the Creator based on this verse.
Historical arguments that try to demonstrate that Muslims did not `convert others by force' are actually secondary to the argument given above. However, it is worth noting that historically, Islam did spread by peaceful means. The Message of the Creator was conveyed to Africa and to southeast Asia by trading Muslims, and today the largest Muslim country in the world is Indonesia. The military expeditions that led to the conquest of large swathes of territory in Europe and central Asia were all marked by tolerance of other creeds and faith.
Again, it is important to remember that Allah declares it IMPOSSIBLE that Islam can be forced on a person, hence Muslims find it useless to try! |
Islamic rule was spread by the sword. Then a dhimmi status for those conquered. No compulsion, but in today's world it is compulsion. It's like telling a women she must spread her legs to move up. Become a Muslim to move up or you get subdued and feel that condition.
I'm not going to trade verses with you. Verses that say Muslims are to terrorize. Verses that say no friendship with non-believers or you are like them.
Islamic law may seem good to you. It is not. It is a law of supremacy over other peoples. And, easily abused. There is no equal protection of the laws and non-believers suffer under Islamic Law, and that is for a reason... submission. To feel their lowly status.
Jihad is not just defensive. The ruling I posted speaks of this. Had it been any other way than Islam never would have left Arabia. It was rejected by all it's neighbors who were later invaded by Muslims and are still today Muslim countries. There are many "Arab" countries in this world. |
|
|
| NC-Stern-Mark |
Quote: Originally posted by hooknoseitalian
i'm not denying anything. those who kill innocent people are not following islam. stonewall is making stereotypical generalizations about muslim people. how does this educate anyone or help anything? |
Stonewall does not consider all Muslim terrorists. Ask him.
Do Muslims understand the Koran? Why do so many consider OBL a "good Muslim?"
I consider the Koran a manisfesto of a madman and Islam nothing more than a cult.
The Koran can be summed up as follows:
Good Stuff in koran = 68 verses
714 verses preach injustice
515 verses preach intolerance
512 verses preach cruelty
109 verses preach absurdities
52 verses preach hatred against women
25 verses in the koran contradict each other
20 verses in the koran preach about sex with houris and young boys
18 verses in the koran contradict science
14 verses in the koran preach hatred to non-muslim family members
6 verses in the koran use foul language |
|
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| NC-Stern-Mark |
| See Chapter 8 of the Koran. :) |
|
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| NC-Stern-Mark |
Ishaq 204: "Men, do you know what you are pledging yourselves to in swearing allegiance to this man?"
"Yes, in swearing allegiance to Mohammed we are pledging to wage War against all Mankind". |
|
|
| hooknoseitalian |
Quote: Originally posted by Stonewall
Islamic rule was spread by the sword. Then a dhimmi status for those conquered. No compulsion, but in today's world it is compulsion. It's like telling a women she must spread her legs to move up. Become a Muslim to move up or you get subdued and feel that condition.
I'm not going to trade verses with you. Verses that say Muslims are to terrorize. Verses that say no friendship with non-believers or you are like them.
Islamic law may seem good to you. It is not. It is a law of supremacy over other peoples. And, easily abused. There is no equal protection of the laws and non-believers suffer under Islamic Law, and that is for a reason... submission. To feel their lowly status.
Jihad is not just defensive. The ruling I posted speaks of this. Had it been any other way than Islam never would have left Arabia. It was rejected by all it's neighbors who were later invaded by Muslims and are still today Muslim countries. There are many "Arab" countries in this world. |
you make your conclusions based on translations of the qur'an that may or may not be correct. there are different ways of translating those words as you can see by the examples i posted. and ANY translation ceases to be "the words of allah" so technically ALL translation is bullshit.
the only submission intended in islam is the submission of the people to allah, not the submission of people to other people. that is a distortion of the message. it's true that they used to have slaves (like every culture), but according to the sunnah even the slaves were to be treated fairly. they were to be given the same food and clothes as their masters and no work that was too much for them to handle alone. that's much better than any slaves were treated here in america.
It's evident that not all Muslims are following the qur'an and sunnah and that Islam is easily abused. That's obviously part of the problem. Breeding hatred for Muslims and Islam is not part of the solution. |
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| Stonewall |
Quote: Originally posted by NC-Stern-Mark
Stonewall does not consider all Muslim terrorists. Ask him.
Do Muslims understand the Koran? Why do so many consider OBL a "good Muslim?"
I consider the Koran a manisfesto of a madman and Islam nothing more than a cult.
The Koran can be summed up as follows:
Good Stuff in koran = 68 verses
714 verses preach injustice
515 verses preach intolerance
512 verses preach cruelty
109 verses preach absurdities
52 verses preach hatred against women
25 verses in the koran contradict each other
20 verses in the koran preach about sex with houris and young boys
18 verses in the koran contradict science
14 verses in the koran preach hatred to non-muslim family members
6 verses in the koran use foul language |
I do not think all Muslims are terrorists. I believe many Muslims reject the teachings. Reject the hate.
That however does not mean that the religion itself has any redeeming value. |
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| mingmen |
Quote: Originally posted by NC-Stern-Mark
Stonewall does not consider all Muslim terrorists. Ask him. |
so how does stumpy feel about muslims? :jj:
funny he would not answer that yesterday. |
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| mingmen |
Quote: Originally posted by NC-Stern-Mark
The Koran can be summed up as follows:
Good Stuff in koran = 68 verses
714 verses preach injustice
515 verses preach intolerance
512 verses preach cruelty
109 verses preach absurdities
52 verses preach hatred against women
25 verses in the koran contradict each other
20 verses in the koran preach about sex with houris and young boys
18 verses in the koran contradict science
14 verses in the koran preach hatred to non-muslim family members
6 verses in the koran use foul language |
do you have any strategy that does not obliterate objectivity? :burst:
do statistics out of context give you a rush every time? :drool: |
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| NC-Stern-Mark |
Muslims in England:
Jihadwatch.org
UK police: 17,000 victims of "honor"-related violence every year
Welcome to the New Britain! "A question of honour: Police say 17,000 women are victims every year," by Brian Brady in The Independent (thanks to the Constantinopolitan Irredentist):
Up to 17,000 women in Britain are being subjected to "honour" related violence, including murder, every year, according to police chiefs.
And official figures on forced marriages are the tip of the iceberg, says the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO).
It warns that the number of girls falling victim to forced marriages, kidnappings, sexual assaults, beatings and even murder by relatives intent on upholding the "honour" of their family is up to 35 times higher than official figures suggest.
The crisis, with children as young as 11 having been sent abroad to be married, has prompted the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to call on British consular staff in Bangladesh, India and Pakistan to take more action to identify and help British citizens believed to be the victims of forced marriages in recent years.
Do they follow the Koran in England? :dontknow: |
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| mingmen |
Quote: Originally posted by hooknoseitalian
distortion of the message. |
stumpy's middle name |
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| mingmen |
Quote: Originally posted by NC-Stern-Mark
Muslims in England:
Jihadwatch.org
UK police: 17,000 victims of "honor"-related violence every year
Welcome to the New Britain! "A question of honour: Police say 17,000 women are victims every year," by Brian Brady in The Independent (thanks to the Constantinopolitan Irredentist):
Up to 17,000 women in Britain are being subjected to "honour" related violence, including murder, every year, according to police chiefs.
And official figures on forced marriages are the tip of the iceberg, says the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO).
It warns that the number of girls falling victim to forced marriages, kidnappings, sexual assaults, beatings and even murder by relatives intent on upholding the "honour" of their family is up to 35 times higher than official figures suggest.
The crisis, with children as young as 11 having been sent abroad to be married, has prompted the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to call on British consular staff in Bangladesh, India and Pakistan to take more action to identify and help British citizens believed to be the victims of forced marriages in recent years.
Do they follow the Koran in England? :dontknow: |
police chiefs dispute official figures? they must really have a different system in britain |
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| Stonewall |
Quote: Originally posted by hooknoseitalian
you make your conclusions based on translations of the qur'an that may or may not be correct. there are different ways of translating those words as you can see by the examples i posted. and ANY translation ceases to be "the words of allah" so technically ALL translation is bullshit.
the only submission intended in islam is the submission of the people to allah, not the submission of people to other people. that is a distortion of the message. it's true that they used to have slaves (like every culture), but according to the sunnah even the slaves were to be treated fairly. they were to be given the same food and clothes as their masters and no work that was too much for them to handle alone. that's much better than any slaves were treated here in america.
It's evident that not all Muslims are following the qur'an and sunnah and that Islam is easily abused. That's obviously part of the problem. Breeding hatred for Muslims and Islam is not part of the solution. |
I base my conclusions on what Muslims teach. What Muslims do.
It's good that a lot of Muslims do not follow the Koran and Sunnah. That makes for a better world.
A dhimmi is not a "slave". It's a Jew or Christian or another non-Muslim who becomes conquered by Islam and made to feel his low status. It's supposed to be that way because Islam must be the dominant religion above all others.
Look at the marriage laws. A Male Muslim can marry from the 'people of the book', but a Female Muslim cannot. Why? Because Males are dominant and thus Islam will be dominant and never subdued. A Muslim Female would be dominated by the Christian or Jewish man and thus unacceptable. It is a religion of Supremacy.
Are you a Muslim? |
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| mingmen |
| jihadwatch.org - sounds balanced |
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| mingmen |
Quote: Originally posted by Stonewall
Are you a Muslim? |
the irony of that question coming from you
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| Stonewall |
Quote: Originally posted by mingmen
the irony of that question coming from you
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Why is that an irony?
I wanted to know what direction his view was coming from, unlike you he appears to have a brain. |
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| hooknoseitalian |
Quote: Originally posted by NC-Stern-Mark
Ishaq 204: "Men, do you know what you are pledging yourselves to in swearing allegiance to this man?"
"Yes, in swearing allegiance to Mohammed we are pledging to wage War against all Mankind". |
where is this from? There is no Ishaq 204 in the qur'an that I can find. I'd like to see the rest of this passage in it's proper context. |
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| hooknoseitalian |
Quote: Originally posted by Stonewall
I base my conclusions on what Muslims teach. What Muslims do.
It's good that a lot of Muslims do not follow the Koran and Sunnah. That makes for a better world.
A dhimmi is not a "slave". It's a Jew or Christian or another non-Muslim who becomes conquered by Islam and made to feel his low status. It's supposed to be that way because Islam must be the dominant religion above all others.
Look at the marriage laws. A Male Muslim can marry from the 'people of the book', but a Female Muslim cannot. Why? Because Males are dominant and thus Islam will be dominant and never subdued. A Muslim Female would be dominated by the Christian or Jewish man and thus unacceptable. It is a religion of Supremacy.
Are you a Muslim? |
yeah i was reading a bit about the male/female dynamic as well. here in america we're used to the idea that men and women should be equal... but if you are honest with yourself you know that we are not equal. women are superior in many ways, and men are superior in different ways. the qur'an recognizes that and gives each a different role to play, which is more honest than our own society if you ask me. how this aspect is abused or has the potential to be abused can only be determined by the individual abusing it, or more accurately, who they're listening to that tells them they should abuse it.
i am not muslim, i was raised roman catholic. however i haven't been a part of the church for 14+ years and i'd like to keep it that way. my personal beliefs are based on life experience and gut instinct. i could honestly say that i believe in allah, though... since that is just another name for god. i have my own opinion on what god is, which doesn't jive with what i was taught growing up... but that's neither here nor there. |
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