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| Stonewall |
Quote: Originally posted by MLBoros72s
So slavery and women's rights should be reversed because it wasn't in the Constitution? |
The people actually voted and amendments were adopted on those things. Neither would have happened when they did without an amendment. The people understood that the national government had limits and that at times they had to act instead of sitting around and hoping. |
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| MLBoros72s |
Quote: Originally posted by emtfromny2
Count me in the 30%. I don't want the government telling me I have to have myself or family treated by one of the sub-standard shitty doctors that is making that great government salary. I always thought America was a capitalist country not socialist. :dontknow: |
Are one of the 30% that agree with Bush that telecom giants should have free reign to invade our privacy at will?
Cuz that'd make us not socialist, but fascist. |
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| emtfromny2 |
Quote: Originally posted by mingmen
He said "why not". After all, the constitution does not forbid it. |
Because I believe in Capitalism. :hw: and no i'm not a Republican, and yes I voted for Bill Clinton. |
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| emtfromny2 |
Quote: Originally posted by MLBoros72s
Are one of the 30% that agree with Bush that telecom giants should have free reign to invade our privacy at will?
Cuz that'd make us not socialist, but fascist. |
No, but if they are complying with a legal court order or subpoena I don't think they should be held liable. They are follow the rule of law when they comply with a court order. |
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| MLBoros72s |
Quote: Originally posted by emtfromny2
No, but if they are complying with a legal court order or subpoena I don't think they should be held liable. They are follow the rule of law when they comply with a court order. |
Court ordered fascism is ok??!?!
Get a clue |
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| Luther |
Quote: Originally posted by MLBoros72s
Are one of the 30% that agree with Bush that telecom giants should have free reign to invade our privacy at will?
Cuz that'd make us not socialist, but fascist. |
Socialism and Fascism are two sides of the same coin. |
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| mingmen |
Quote: Originally posted by emtfromny2
Because I believe in Capitalism. :hw: |
is that like believing in the tooth fairy? I think they will both be equally effective in running the health care system :yes:
Quote: Originally posted by emtfromny2
and no i'm not a Republican, and yes I voted for Bill Clinton. |
I have seen your opinions before - who are you trying to kid? :jj: |
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| relsh |
Quote: Originally posted by mingmen
so when do we eliminate medicare and medicaid? |
you can't now....we are too far in. that's the problem with these unconstitutional programs........people start to believe these programs are "rights"; that they are entitled to them.
it may sound cold, but healthy/able-bodied retirees should have to save enough money for retirement that they can pay for their own private plan. on the otherhand, i don't have a problem with the disabled benefiting with such programs (even though that is equally unconstitutional). either way, i shouldn't have to pay into medicare/medicaid, if i choose to go with a private plan for myself.
as i stated before, there are many programs that "pervert" our intended system of government. it's not my concern to argue the morals/ethics of when perverting the constitution is the appropriate thing to do. |
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| mingmen |
Quote: Originally posted by emtfromny2
No, but if they are complying with a legal court order or subpoena I don't think they should be held liable. They are follow the rule of law when they comply with a court order. |
:bs: we have a right to know what went on |
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| mingmen |
Quote: Originally posted by relsh
you can't now....we are too far in. that's the problem with these unconstitutional programs........people start to believe these programs are "rights"; that they are entitled to them. |
you mean they set a legal precedent? |
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| mingmen |
Quote: Originally posted by relsh
it's not my concern to argue the morals/ethics of when perverting the constitution is the appropriate thing to do. |
you have hit on my mission statement |
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| Luther |
| I don't think anyone is an opponent of the idea that in a just society everyone should have access to adequate health care. What many people do object to is the idea that the best way to achieve this objective is through massively increased government intervention in the relevant sectors of the economy. That will likely exasperate the problem, and even if it has a moderately positive effect, the underlying problem will still be a long way from solved. |
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| mingmen |
Quote: Originally posted by relsh
it may sound cold, but healthy/able-bodied retirees should have to save enough money for retirement that they can pay for their own private plan. on the otherhand, i don't have a problem with the disabled benefiting with such programs (even though that is equally unconstitutional). either way, i shouldn't have to pay into medicare/medicaid, if i choose to go with a private plan for myself. |
you are entitled to that opinion |
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| mingmen |
Quote: Originally posted by Luther
I don't think anyone is an opponent of the idea that in a just society everyone should have access to adequate health care. What many people do object to is the idea that the best way to achieve this objective is through massively increased government intervention in the relevant sectors of the economy. That will likely exasperate the problem, and even if it has a moderately positive effect, the underlying problem will still be a long way from solved. |
we are all ears |
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| relsh |
Quote: Originally posted by mingmen
you mean they set a legal precedent? |
which can be overturned.
but no, that's not what i meant.
you've had decades of people paying into these programs (to the benefit of a different set of people)......to eliminate them now, would be to screw over millions of people. you can alter/improve/trim back these programs to an extent, but you won't be able to eliminate them completely at the snap of a finger. |
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| mingmen |
Quote: Originally posted by relsh
which can be overturned. |
have at it :yes:
Quote: Originally posted by relsh
but no, that's not what i meant.
you've had decades of people paying into these programs (to the benefit of a different set of people)......to eliminate them now, would be to screw over millions of people. you can alter/improve/trim back these programs to an extent, but you won't be able to eliminate them completely at the snap of a finger. |
then there is the fact that the majority of americans support the concept of universal healthcare. |
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| Stonewall |
Quote: Originally posted by mingmen
have at it :yes:
then there is the fact that the majority of americans support the concept of universal healthcare. |
It should be very easy to get an amendment if millions want universal health care. |
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| Luther |
Quote: Originally posted by mingmen
we are all ears |
What do you want to know? |
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| mingmen |
Quote: Originally posted by Luther
What do you want to know? |
I guess nothing - sounded like you had a better idea |
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| mingmen |
Quote: Originally posted by Stonewall
It should be very easy to get an amendment if millions want universal health care. |
I doubt it |
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| relsh |
Quote: Originally posted by mingmen
have at it :yes: |
i do my best with the votes i cast. :)
| Quote: then there is the fact that the majority of americans support the concept of universal healthcare. |
then they will make sure to vote for the candidates that will give (or at least claim to give) them what they want. |
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| Luther |
Quote: Originally posted by mingmen
I guess nothing - sounded like you had a better idea |
I definitely have better solutions for health care than socialism. That is a subject that would be deserving of its own thread. |
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| mingmen |
Quote: Originally posted by Luther
I definitely have better solutions for health care than socialism. That is a subject that would be deserving of its own thread. |
ok |
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| Luther |
Quote: Originally posted by mingmen
ok |
Stay tuned. |
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| NCMike06 |
Quote: Originally posted by MLBoros72s
Are one of the 30% that agree with Bush that telecom giants should have free reign to invade our privacy at will?
Cuz that'd make us not socialist, but fascist. |
DO you have a link to that poll???? And there is currently no law, or proposed law that would give Telecom companies 'free reign to invade our privacy at will' ..that statemene from you is nothing more than overblown rhetoric, which does nothing to further any debate. |
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| NCMike06 |
Quote: Originally posted by Stonewall
It should be very easy to get an amendment if millions want universal health care. |
Exactly...and your statement puts a lie to the nonsense about a majority of people wanting universal health care. Those who support socialized medicin dare not go thru the amendment process, and have to deal with humiliating defeat of their talking point, forever. |
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| MLBoros72s |
Quote: Originally posted by NCMike06
DO you have a link to that poll???? And there is currently no law, or proposed law that would give Telecom companies 'free reign to invade our privacy at will' ..that statemene from you is nothing more than overblown rhetoric, which does nothing to further any debate. |
Your right because the Dems in Congress won't let Dubya get away with it. |
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| mingmen |
Quote: Originally posted by Luther
Stay tuned. |
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| NCMike06 |
Quote: Originally posted by MLBoros72s
Your right because the Dems in Congress won't let Dubya get away with it. |
I guess you missed where I said 'proposed law'...... WHich would cover the current update to the Terrorist Surveillance law that is pending in the House.
Any luck with the poll supporting your 30% statement?? |
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| MLBoros72s |
Quote: Originally posted by NCMike06
I guess you missed where I said 'proposed law'...... WHich would cover the current update to the Terrorist Surveillance law that is pending in the House.
Any luck with the poll supporting your 30% statement?? |
That was with the whole flow in the argument regarding the Bush's approval rating...
Bush Sucks |
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| NCMike06 |
Quote: Originally posted by MLBoros72s
That was with the whole flow in the argument regarding the Bush's approval rating...
Bush Sucks |
So you can't really prove the statement, right??? Except to try to tie it to Bush's approval rating...which is logically flawed, as I am sure you understand, correct? |
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| zimmie |
| less than 40% of Americans want universal health care if they can't go to their own doctors and have to get in line for treatment.... |
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| zimmie |
Health Care: Government vs. Private
By Walter E. Williams
Sometimes the advocates of socialized medicine claim that health care is too important to be left to the market. That’s why some politicians are calling for us to adopt health care systems such as those in Canada, the United Kingdom and other European nations. But the suggestion that we’d be better served with more government control doesn’t even pass a simple smell test.
Do we want the government employees who run the troubled Walter Reed Army Medical Center to be in charge of our entire health care system? Or, would you like the people who deliver our mail to also deliver health care services? How would you like the people who run the motor vehicles department, the government education system, foreign intelligence and other government agencies to also run our health care system? After all, they are not motivated by the quest for profits, and that might mean they’re truly wonderful, selfless, caring people.
As for me, I’d choose profit-driven people to provide my health care services, people with motives like those who deliver goods to my supermarket, deliver my overnight mail, produce my computer and software programs, assemble my car and produce a host of other goods and services that I use.
There’s absolutely no mystery why our greatest complaints are in the arena of government-delivered services and the fewest in market-delivered services. In the market, there are the ruthless forces of profit, loss and bankruptcy that make producers accountable to us. In the arena of government-delivered services, there’s no such accountability. For example, government schools can go for decades delivering low-quality services, and what’s the result? The people who manage it earn higher pay. It’s nearly impossible to fire the incompetents. And, taxpayers, who support the service, are given higher tax bills.
Our health care system is hampered by government intervention, and the solution is not more government intervention but less. The tax treatment of health insurance, where premiums are deducted from employees’ pre-tax income, explains why so many of us rely on our employers to select and pay for health insurance. Since there is a third-party payer, we have little incentive to shop around and wisely use health services.
There are “guaranteed issue” laws that require insurance companies to sell health insurance to any person seeking it. So why not wait until you’re sick before purchasing insurance? Guaranteed issue laws make about as much sense as if you left your house uninsured until you had a fire, and then purchased insurance to cover the damage. Guaranteed issue laws raise insurance premiums for all. Then there are government price controls, such as the reimbursement schemes for Medicaid. As a result, an increasing number of doctors are unwilling to treat Medicaid patients.
Before we buy into single-payer health care systems like Canada’s and the United Kingdom’s , we might want to do a bit of research. The Vancouver, British Columbia-based Fraser Institute annually publishes “Waiting Your Turn.” Its 2006 edition gives waiting times, by treatments, from a person’s referral by a general practitioner to treatment by a specialist. The shortest waiting time was for oncology (4.9 weeks). The longest waiting time was for orthopedic surgery (40.3 weeks), followed by plastic surgery (35.4 weeks) and neurosurgery (31.7 weeks ).
As reported in the June 28 National Center for Policy Analysis’ “Daily Policy Digest,” Britain’s Department of Health recently acknowledged that one in eight patients waits more than a year for surgery. France’s failed health care system resulted in the deaths of 13,000 people, mostly of dehydration, during the heat spell of 2003. Hospitals stopped answering the phones, and ambulance attendants told people to fend for themselves. I don’t think most Americans would like more socialized medicine in our country. By the way, I have absolutely no problem with people wanting socialism. My problem is when they want to drag me into it. |
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| mingmen |
Quote: Originally posted by zimmie
less than 40% of Americans want universal health care if they can't go to their own doctors and have to get in line for treatment.... |
those are 2 huge caveats you just slid in there, lying scum :burst: |
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| mingmen |
Quote: Originally posted by zimmie
Health Care: Government vs. Private
By Walter E. Williams
Sometimes the advocates of socialized medicine claim that health care is too important to be left to the market. That’s why some politicians are calling for us to adopt health care systems such as those in Canada, the United Kingdom and other European nations. But the suggestion that we’d be better served with more government control doesn’t even pass a simple smell test.
Do we want the government employees who run the troubled Walter Reed Army Medical Center to be in charge of our entire health care system? Or, would you like the people who deliver our mail to also deliver health care services? How would you like the people who run the motor vehicles department, the government education system, foreign intelligence and other government agencies to also run our health care system? After all, they are not motivated by the quest for profits, and that might mean they’re truly wonderful, selfless, caring people.
As for me, I’d choose profit-driven people to provide my health care services, people with motives like those who deliver goods to my supermarket, deliver my overnight mail, produce my computer and software programs, assemble my car and produce a host of other goods and services that I use.
There’s absolutely no mystery why our greatest complaints are in the arena of government-delivered services and the fewest in market-delivered services. In the market, there are the ruthless forces of profit, loss and bankruptcy that make producers accountable to us. In the arena of government-delivered services, there’s no such accountability. For example, government schools can go for decades delivering low-quality services, and what’s the result? The people who manage it earn higher pay. It’s nearly impossible to fire the incompetents. And, taxpayers, who support the service, are given higher tax bills.
Our health care system is hampered by government intervention, and the solution is not more government intervention but less. The tax treatment of health insurance, where premiums are deducted from employees’ pre-tax income, explains why so many of us rely on our employers to select and pay for health insurance. Since there is a third-party payer, we have little incentive to shop around and wisely use health services.
There are “guaranteed issue” laws that require insurance companies to sell health insurance to any person seeking it. So why not wait until you’re sick before purchasing insurance? Guaranteed issue laws make about as much sense as if you left your house uninsured until you had a fire, and then purchased insurance to cover the damage. Guaranteed issue laws raise insurance premiums for all. Then there are government price controls, such as the reimbursement schemes for Medicaid. As a result, an increasing number of doctors are unwilling to treat Medicaid patients.
Before we buy into single-payer health care systems like Canada’s and the United Kingdom’s, we might want to do a bit of research. The Vancouver, British Columbia-based Fraser Institute annually publishes “Waiting Your Turn.” Its 2006 edition gives waiting times, by treatments, from a person’s referral by a general practitioner to treatment by a specialist. The shortest waiting time was for oncology (4.9 weeks). The longest waiting time was for orthopedic surgery (40.3 weeks), followed by plastic surgery (35.4 weeks) and neurosurgery (31.7 weeks).
As reported in the June 28 National Center for Policy Analysis’ “Daily Policy Digest,” Britain’s Department of Health recently acknowledged that one in eight patients waits more than a year for surgery. France’s failed health care system resulted in the deaths of 13,000 people, mostly of dehydration, during the heat spell of 2003. Hospitals stopped answering the phones, and ambulance attendants told people to fend for themselves.
I don’t think most Americans would like more socialized medicine in our country. By the way, I have absolutely no problem with people wanting socialism. My problem is when they want to drag me into it. |
who is advocating "socialized healthcare"? just so we are clear. |
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| zimmie |
Quote: Originally posted by mingmen
those are 2 huge caveats you just slid in there, lying scum :burst: |
caveats?.....this is what happens in every country that has universal health care
.....you don't make you own rules when it's turned over to the government dumbass |
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| zimmie |
Public Preference:
Current System or Universal Coverage?
Current system: 32%
Universal coverage: 62%
Universal, with waiting lists for non-emergency treatment: 39%
Universal, with limited choice of doctors: 35%
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/livi...31020_poll.html |
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| mingmen |
Quote: Originally posted by zimmie
caveats?.....this is what happens in every country that has universal health care
.....you don't make you own rules when it's turned over to the government dumbass |
what does "turned over to the government" mean, asswipe? :burst: |
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| zimmie |
| can't you switch to one of your less stupid mults? |
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| mingmen |
| btw zimmiefuck, how long does it take you to get an appointment for non-emergency treatment? :jj: |
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| mingmen |
Quote: Originally posted by zimmie
can't you switch to one of your less stupid mults? |
:secret: each machine is signed in differently |
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| MLBoros72s |
Quote: Originally posted by NCMike06
So you can't really prove the statement, right??? Except to try to tie it to Bush's approval rating...which is logically flawed, as I am sure you understand, correct? |
Dude no...that's not even what I was talking about.
I was saying that 70% of the country disapproves of Bush...someone said "I'm glad I'm one of the 30"...I made that remark saying are you also one of the 30% that thinks Bush is doing a good job with a fascist policy of cooperating with corporations to monitor its citizens...
Semantics arguments all you're capable of? |
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| NCMike06 |
Quote: Originally posted by MLBoros72s
Dude no...that's not even what I was talking about.
I was saying that 70% of the country disapproves of Bush...someone said "I'm glad I'm one of the 30"...I made that remark saying are you also one of the 30% that thinks Bush is doing a good job with a fascist policy of cooperating with corporations to monitor its citizens...
Semantics arguments all you're capable of? |
Thanks for confirming that I was exactly correct...you are equating the popularity of every Bush policy with his overall approval rating, which is not logical. You have no proof that 30% of the people agree with your position. (not to mention that any serious poll would not use the overblown and false rhetoric that you do.)
Right now, you should just say: "Unfortunately, I didn't represent myself properly on how I wanted to explain myself."
or
backup your statement. |
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| emtfromny2 |
Quote: Originally posted by mingmen
:bs: we have a right to know what went on |
You can know. You go through the courts under a Freedom of Information Act. If it is a FISA warrant then it will be sealed, but I don't agree with the argument that a telecom company should be penalized for complying with a legal court order. |
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| MLBoros72s |
Quote: Originally posted by NCMike06
Thanks for confirming that I was exactly correct...you are equating the popularity of every Bush policy with his overall approval rating, which is not logical. You have no proof that 30% of the people agree with your position. (not to mention that any serious poll would not use the overblown and false rhetoric that you do.)
Right now, you should just say: "Unfortunately, I didn't represent myself properly on how I wanted to explain myself."
or
backup your statement. |
It's fascist, and no percentage of intelligent American should agree with protecting telecomm giants over it's own citizens, if we are to believe what the President says, regardless of whatever small semantics poppycock you throw at me.
Please don't try to tell me what to say. |
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| NCMike06 |
Quote: Originally posted by MLBoros72s
It's fascist, and no percentage of intelligent American should agree with protecting telecomm giants over it's own citizens, if we are to believe what the President says, regardless of whatever small semantics poppycock you throw at me.
Please don't try to tell me what to say. |
It is not fascist. And isn't it interesting that you don't like when I tell you what you should say, (did you even recognize the quote???? ) just AFTER you claimed to know what every intelligent American should believe....
Ohh, and white flag accepted..you cannot backup your statement from earlier. |
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| MLBoros72s |
Quote: Originally posted by NCMike06
It is not fascist. And isn't it interesting that you don't like when I tell you what you should say, (did you even recognize the quote???? ) just AFTER you claimed to know what every intelligent American should believe....
Ohh, and white flag accepted..you cannot backup your statement from earlier. |
Oh you're a funny clown. I'm glad you and your undeniable truths have come to my life, as I was explicitly trying to express a factual point instead of my own opinion in the flow of conversation. :rolleyes:
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini |
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| NCMike06 |
Quote: Originally posted by MLBoros72s
Oh you're a funny clown. I'm glad you and your undeniable truths have come to my life, as I was explicitly trying to express a factual point instead of my own opinion in the flow of conversation. :rolleyes:
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini |
WHich 'factual' point was that...and if it were factual, you would be able to back it up....
And fascism and socialism are very closely related...which means that the American left has much more in common with fascism than conservatism ever could. |
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| MLBoros72s |
Quote: Originally posted by NCMike06
WHich 'factual' point was that...and if it were factual, you would be able to back it up....
And fascism and socialism are very closely related...which means that the American left has much more in common with fascism than conservatism ever could. |
How is the philosophy of corporate and state merged power and the philosophy of social organization in which property and the distribution of income are subject to social control rather than individual determination or market forces one in the same?
An idiot you have been proved. |
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| mingmen |
Quote: Originally posted by emtfromny2
You can know. You go through the courts under a Freedom of Information Act. If it is a FISA warrant then it will be sealed, but I don't agree with the argument that a telecom company should be penalized for complying with a legal court order. |
http://www.slate.com/id/2184367/ |
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| mingmen |
Quote: Originally posted by NCMike06
WHich 'factual' point was that...and if it were factual, you would be able to back it up....
And fascism and socialism are very closely related...which means that the American left has much more in common with fascism than conservatism ever could. |
if only that were true. has a nice ring to it :burst: |
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| NCMike06 |
Quote: Originally posted by MLBoros72s
How is the philosophy of corporate and state merged power and the philosophy of social organization in which property and the distribution of income are subject to social control rather than individual determination or market forces one in the same?
An idiot you have been proved. |
If you cannot see how they are eerily similar, (and I said they were closely related, not 1 in the same....not surprising that you have to change my argument, in order to make your pitiful retort) you are dumber than I thought. What do you think 'social control' is??? WHo do you think runs the corporate and state merged power???? Both answers are the government, numnuts. |
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| MLBoros72s |
Quote: Originally posted by NCMike06
If you cannot see how they are eerily similar, (and I said they were closely related, not 1 in the same....not surprising that you have to change my argument, in order to make your pitiful retort) you are dumber than I thought. What do you think 'social control' is??? WHo do you think runs the corporate and state merged power???? Both answers are the government, numnuts. |
Their philosophies are far different. The practices are both totalitarian...
Didn't need you to reteach me 8th grade history however. |
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| NCMike06 |
Quote: Originally posted by MLBoros72s
Their philosophies are far different. The practices are both totalitarian...
Didn't need you to reteach me 8th grade history however. |
Actually, their philosophys are very similar...which is the point. Which was my point...and someone needs to teach you history, you are exposing yourself as uneducated with every post. |
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