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Death of another leftwing talking point.... - Click HERE to go to the original thread with graphics

NCMike06

''The Bush Administration has destroyed our alliances, and ruined our relationship with our allies''

- is how the talking point usually goes in some for or another....

BUT...

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/artic...L&type=politics

NATO supports Bush on missile defense plan
James Gerstenzang, Los Angeles Times

Friday, April 4, 2008

(04-04) 04:00 PDT Bucharest, Romania -- With President Bush headed to what is likely to be his final summit conference with President Vladimir Putin, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization Thursday provided the show of support Bush sought for the missile defense plan the Russian leader has vehemently opposed.

The alliance also renewed its political and military support for the U.S.-led war in Afghanistan; welcomed two new members, Croatia and Albania; and opened the door to eventual membership to Montenegro and Bosnia-Herzegovina.

With the 12 members admitted in the nearly two decades since the end of the Cold War and those on the formal path toward membership, NATO is demonstrating a dramatic evolution eastward. Figuratively and literally, it is moving away from its post-World War II roots as an alliance of the United States, Canada and the major powers of Western Europe erecting a defense network against the nations of the Soviet-led Warsaw Pact.

I wonder if Obama will stab our allies in the back on this deal, like he wishes to do with NAFTA.....at least before he lied about it.....

Bronks Breasts

I guess you have given up defending Dumbya ?

NCMike06

Quote: Originally posted by Bronks Breasts
I guess you have given up defending Dumbya ?

Maybe you missed the meaning of the post??? And I defend him when the attacks from the left are lies and distortions (as most are)...

modeams

Do you think NAFTA is beneficial to America?

I'm glad you've accepted the notion of our first half white president.

SeattleWilly

Quote: Originally posted by NCMike06
Maybe you missed the meaning of the post??? And I defend him when the attacks from the left are lies and distortions (as most are)...

Lies and distortions... like WMDs in Iraq and the 9/11 - Iraq connection?

Rush Has AIDS

I wonder how much money will be given to them for this no bid contract?

I don't hear any ringing endorsement for the Bush Doctrine.

Anogram

Kevin Rudd’s Bush salute riles Australians
By: scarce @ 5:00 PM - PDT

In a sign of just how toxic the Bush administration has become for Australian politicians after years of former PM John Howard’s all-too willing servility, current prime minister Kevin Rudd gets into trouble at home for “conduct unbecoming of an Australian prime minister” by saluting Bush at the NATO summit.

Greens Leader Bob Brown was also unimpressed, accusing Mr Rudd of belittling Australia and being subservient. “There is a streak of John Howard’s ‘deputy sheriff’ in Kevin Rudd’s slip-up,” he said. “We are not the 51st state of the United States of America and Mr Rudd’s salute carried a subservient connotation many Australians won’t like.”

Anogram

April 4, 2008 from The Bryant Park Project
Talking about McCain and that he buys into the view that you think is false.

STEWART: So, David, you were with Senator McCain around this time, and you've been following what he's been talking about Iraq. Has his stump speech softened at all or changed at all as people have been able to take his comments and use them against him?

Mr. KUHN: I do think that this in part led him to in his speech upon returning from the Middle East and from his time abroad out in Europe as well. I do think it played in his campaign - and they really weren't keenly aware of this until they saw the Democrats attacking them, but only really after it sort of came into the sphere of discussion last week and a half were they really aware that it could really damage his candidacy. I do believe it played into his - in his speech, he basically admitted that U.S. - the view of the United States has significantly depreciated in the last few years under the Bush presidency, and he acknowledged it.

He said you have to take it seriously. And in doing that, he - the de facto result was that he separated himself from President Bush by doing - by basically saying this is important, and the president hasn't paid enough attention to our image in the world. We cannot go it alone. It was really a declaration by McCain that he also believes "cowboy diplomacy" is over. And in the larger sense, that was also interesting to me because of course, that meant that no matter who's our next president, there really is an end to a "cowboy diplomacy" that was pushed by this White House.

STEWART: David Paul Kuhn is a senior political reporter for politico.com. Hey, thanks for sharing your reporting, David.

Mr. KUHN: Thank you.

Stonewall

NATO should be disbanded.

Rush Has AIDS

Quote: Originally posted by NCMike06
Maybe you missed the meaning of the post??? And I defend him when the attacks from the left are lies and distortions (as most are)...

lol.... when would that be?

You're "defense" of the President has been weak, but quite comical.

How many more times does he have to embarrass you, to wake you up?

Bist Meshugeh

Quote: Originally posted by Stonewall
NATO should be disbanded.

Not before the UN.

VacateTheWord

Quote: Originally posted by SeattleWilly
Lies and distortions... like WMDs in Iraq and the 9/11 - Iraq connection?

Every major intelligence agency in the world agreed that Iraq had WMD stockpiles and an active program for production. Are you seriously going to assert that France and Russia, two countries that vehemently opposed the invasion, cooked their own books to justify it?

As for 9/11 and Iraq - It is a fact that Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was in Iraq during the invasion.
As a refresher, he is the former leader of Al Qaeda in Iraq. Al Qaeda is the group responsible for 9/11.

VacateTheWord

Quote: Originally posted by NCMike06
I wonder if Obama will stab our allies in the back on this deal, like he wishes to do with NAFTA.....at least before he lied about it.....

Well I don't know if he will automatically if he takes office - I think he'll use it like NAFTA, and I quote, "as a hammer" to threaten our allies. I don't know if he'll persue such measures before or after his Camp David weekend with Ahmadinejad.

modeams

source?

Stonewall

Quote: Originally posted by VacateTheWord
Every major intelligence agency in the world agreed that Iraq had WMD stockpiles and an active program for production. Are you seriously going to assert that France and Russia, two countries that vehemently opposed the invasion, cooked their own books to justify it?

As for 9/11 and Iraq - It is a fact that Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was in Iraq during the invasion.
As a refresher, he is the former leader of Al Qaeda in Iraq. Al Qaeda is the group responsible for 9/11.

And Al Qaeda launched an attack from Iraq to Jordon where Zarqawi's cell in Iraq killed Laurence Foley in Amman. That was in 2002.

Stonewall

Saddam refused to hand Zarqawi to Jordan: King Abdullah

mingmen

to justify what?

VacateTheWord

Quote: Originally posted by modeams
source?

U.S. government analysts were not alone in these views. In the late spring of 2002 I participated in a Washington meeting about Iraqi WMD. Those present included nearly twenty former inspectors from the United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM), the force established in 1991 to oversee the elimination of WMD in Iraq. One of the senior people put a question to the group: Did anyone in the room doubt that Iraq was currently operating a secret centrifuge plant? No one did. Three people added that they believed Iraq was also operating a secret calutron plant (a facility for separating uranium isotopes).

Other nations' intelligence services were similarly aligned with U.S. views. Somewhat remarkably, given how adamantly Germany would oppose the war, the German Federal Intelligence Service held the bleakest view of all, arguing that Iraq might be able to build a nuclear weapon within three years. Israel, Russia, Britain, China, and even France held positions similar to that of the United States; France's President Jacques Chirac told Time magazine last February, "There is a problem—the probable possession of weapons of mass destruction by an uncontrollable country, Iraq. The international community is right ... in having decided Iraq should be disarmed." In sum, no one doubted that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.

~ Kenneth Pollack

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200401/pollack

Fdubya247

:lol:

Yeah, until the weapons inspectors went back in and found NOTHING, right up until they were forced out of the country by the Bush Cabal's unnecessary invasion.

"Spring of 2002"....are you kidding us???

BWAHAHAHAHA-HAHAHAHAHA!!!!

:jj:

"Kenneth Pollack"

:rolleyes:

VacateTheWord

Quote: Originally posted by Fdubya247
:lol:

Yeah, until the weapons inspectors went back in and found NOTHING, right up until they were forced out of the country by the Bush Cabal's unnecessary invasion.

"Spring of 2002"....are you kidding us???

BWAHAHAHAHA-HAHAHAHAHA!!!!

:jj:

"Kenneth Pollack"

:rolleyes:

Funny how you left out the part where the inspectors had reported that the Iraqis were not acting in good faith and giving the inspectors free access. Back then the conclusion was that it was the same old shit - let the inspectors in through the front door only after they'd finished with moving the shit out the back door.

And yes, every major intelligence agency believed that Hussein had WMD. So you either have to concede (doubtful, as you are a far-left Liberal) that there was a broad concensus for the rationale for the invasion or you have to explain how the Bush Administration got all of those countries to cook their books.

mingmen

Quote: Originally posted by VacateTheWord
So you either have to concede (doubtful, as you are a far-left Liberal) that there was a broad concensus for the rationale for the invasion or you have to explain how the Bush Administration got all of those countries to cook their books.

consensus for invasion did not exist. can you refute that?

NCMike06

Quote: Originally posted by modeams
Do you think NAFTA is beneficial to America?

I'm glad you've accepted the notion of our first half white president.

Overall, NAFTA has been a net plus for the US. It's not a zero sum game. Obama's lies and distortions don't trouble you on this issue, it seems?...Why would they, all of his other lies don't seem to trouble you either.

Fdubya247

Quote: Originally posted by VacateTheWord
Funny how you left out the part where the inspectors had reported that the Iraqis were not acting in good faith and giving the inspectors free access. Back then the conclusion was that it was the same old shit - let the inspectors in through the front door only after they'd finished with moving the shit out the back door.

And yes, every major intelligence agency believed that Hussein had WMD. So you either have to concede (doubtful, as you are a far-left Liberal) that there was a broad concensus for the rationale for the invasion or you have to explain how the Bush Administration got all of those countries to cook their books.

:bs:

People within our own intelligence community raised serious doubts. They were ignored. Blix, the IAEA, and Ritter were ignored. By March 2003 it was quite clear to them that there were no WMDs.

The Bush Cabal "chose" instead to go with the word of the discredited "Curve Ball", who German intelligence told us was full of shit, and Ahmad Chalabi, who EVERYONE knew was full of shit.

Italian intelligence told us the "Niger" documents were forgeries.

VaCunt, you've been told all this a hundred times. You are a fucking debunked LIAR.

Bist Meshugeh

Quote: Originally posted by NCMike06
''The Bush Administration has destroyed our alliances, and ruined our relationship with our allies''

- is how the talking point usually goes in some for or another....

BUT...

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/artic...L&type=politics

NATO supports Bush on missile defense plan
James Gerstenzang, Los Angeles Times

Friday, April 4, 2008

(04-04) 04:00 PDT Bucharest, Romania -- With President Bush headed to what is likely to be his final summit conference with President Vladimir Putin, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization Thursday provided the show of support Bush sought for the missile defense plan the Russian leader has vehemently opposed.

The alliance also renewed its political and military support for the U.S.-led war in Afghanistan; welcomed two new members, Croatia and Albania; and opened the door to eventual membership to Montenegro and Bosnia-Herzegovina.

With the 12 members admitted in the nearly two decades since the end of the Cold War and those on the formal path toward membership, NATO is demonstrating a dramatic evolution eastward. Figuratively and literally, it is moving away from its post-World War II roots as an alliance of the United States, Canada and the major powers of Western Europe erecting a defense network against the nations of the Soviet-led Warsaw Pact.

I wonder if Obama will stab our allies in the back on this deal, like he wishes to do with NAFTA.....at least before he lied about it.....

What about the people in Canada, they dont like the USA.

Timmy

If only we had this missle sheild before 911 then we would have......... Oh.........nevermind.

mingmen

Quote: Originally posted by NCMike06
Overall, NAFTA has been a net plus for the US. It's not a zero sum game.

then what did the US gain? :munch: :burst:

Reed Rothchild

Quote: Originally posted by Timmy
If only we had this missle sheild before 911 then we would have......... Oh.........nevermind.

What, You don't want a missile shield? Why do you hate America?

mr wrong

Quote: Originally posted by mingmen
then what did the US gain? :munch: :burst:

Unemployment claims??

mingmen

Quote: Originally posted by mr wrong
Unemployment claims??

reduced standard of living?

Fdubya247

Quote: Originally posted by mingmen
reduced standard of living?

corporate hegemony?

booybob

Quote: Originally posted by NCMike06
Overall, NAFTA has been a net plus for the US. It's not a zero sum game. Obama's lies and distortions don't trouble you on this issue, it seems?...Why would they, all of his other lies don't seem to trouble you either.

Mike, you need to pull your head out of your ass with this issue.

Nafta was the beginning of the end for the American manufacturing base. So what if the Chinese can make it cheaper, it does not make it right. Can you please explain the benefit to the US worker? The only people who benefited from this was the CEO's and the stock holders, NOT THE WORKERS.

How many job have left for China,India,Bangladesh etc?? What jobs have come back to this country from those countries?? NAFTA is not a trade deal, it is a deal to gut the middle class and RUIN the economy of the USA.

Not everyone can afford or has the required skills to go to college. Those people are the ones that needed the manufacturing jobs. They have always paid a great wage and gave people a sense of being part of this country's prosperity. Today these same people are standing in lines 1000 deep for a job at walmart.

The reason our trade deficit is so bad is because WE DON'T MANUFACTURE ANYTHING IN THIS COUNTRY THAT THE WORLD CAN BUY. Have many countries can buy walmart workers,McDonalds workers etc. If you don't make any products, you can not sell any products. If you don't sell anything,the world can't buy anything hence our TRILLION dollar deficit.

The USA is turning into a service industry where the wages CANNOT support a family,buy a home,afford health care, a college education or any of the other things that are needed to live an enjoyable life.

Until we make free trade FAIR TRADE this country will suffer.

I say we need to apply tariffs to ALL products that come into this country from countries
that do not have our health and saftey standards.

I say apply tariffs to all products that come from countries that do not have our enviromental regulations.

I say you penalize any country that ships it's jobs overseas for the gain of the CEO's and the stock holders.

NAFTA, GATT, and all of the other free trade deals :rolleyes: have fucked the average US worker.
This could take decades to fix.

booybob

OK Mike, since you wont respond I will give you an easy one.

Please name 5 things that are manufactured in the USA today.
Do not include defense companies or auto makers.

I will be waiting :D

cecilturtle06

:secret: Psst! They're only being nice to Bush because he's leaving in 9 months.

NCMike06

Quote: Originally posted by cecilturtle06
:secret: Psst! They're only being nice to Bush because he's leaving in 9 months.

Piss poor attempt, even by your standards...I'll actually take this as an agreement on the issue.

NCMike06

Quote: Originally posted by booybob
Mike, you need to pull your head out of your ass with this issue.

Nafta was the beginning of the end for the American manufacturing base. So what if the Chinese can make it cheaper, it does not make it right. Can you please explain the benefit to the US worker? The only people who benefited from this was the CEO's and the stock holders, NOT THE WORKERS.

How many job have left for China,India,Bangladesh etc?? What jobs have come back to this country from those countries?? NAFTA is not a trade deal, it is a deal to gut the middle class and RUIN the economy of the USA.

Not everyone can afford or has the required skills to go to college. Those people are the ones that needed the manufacturing jobs. They have always paid a great wage and gave people a sense of being part of this country's prosperity. Today these same people are standing in lines 1000 deep for a job at walmart.

The reason our trade deficit is so bad is because WE DON'T MANUFACTURE ANYTHING IN THIS COUNTRY THAT THE WORLD CAN BUY. Have many countries can buy walmart workers,McDonalds workers etc. If you don't make any products, you can not sell any products. If you don't sell anything,the world can't buy anything hence our TRILLION dollar deficit.

The USA is turning into a service industry where the wages CANNOT support a family,buy a home,afford health care, a college education or any of the other things that are needed to live an enjoyable life.

Until we make free trade FAIR TRADE this country will suffer.

I say we need to apply tariffs to ALL products that come into this country from countries
that do not have our health and saftey standards.

I say apply tariffs to all products that come from countries that do not have our enviromental regulations.

I say you penalize any country that ships it's jobs overseas for the gain of the CEO's and the stock holders.

NAFTA, GATT, and all of the other free trade deals :rolleyes: have fucked the average US worker.
This could take decades to fix.

You do understand that NAFTA had nothing to do with the Chinese, right??? Neither did Bangladesh, or India...its interesting that in a post about NAFTA, you fail to mention Canada and MExico....

You do realize that 9 out of 10 years in the 30's we carried a trade surplus, right??

Your protectionism would lead to more job losses in 1 year, than in the past 15 due to Nafta.

Under NAFTA, we have seen record EXPORTS....as other countries rise up, they will demand MORE of our products and services. Your protectionism will not only punish AMerican workers, it will close those markets that might otherwise be open too us. You will then have a situation where those countries will never be able to rise to our level, (or close) never be able put in place those policies YOU say must be in place prior to trade.

Free trade EXPANDS jobs because it opens markets. It helps consumers with lower prices and greater choice. Its amazing that anyone can be against that trifecta.

NCMike06

Quote: Originally posted by booybob
OK Mike, since you wont respond I will give you an easy one.

Please name 5 things that are manufactured in the USA today.
Do not include defense companies or auto makers.

I will be waiting :D

You do know that over 60% our our exports are manufactured products right??

Am I allowed to include:

Computers and related equipment (including microprocessors) ? Airplanes and related equipment (spare parts, ect) ? Medical Supplies and equipment? Agricultural equipment, Chemicals, electrical equipment, food products....

You must be joking with this right???

Bist Meshugeh

Quote: Originally posted by modeams
source?

:rolleyes:

Read somthing besides qrmag.com

Rush Has AIDS

Quote: Originally posted by NCMike06
You do understand that NAFTA had nothing to do with the Chinese, right??? Neither did Bangladesh, or India...its interesting that in a post about NAFTA, you fail to mention Canada and MExico....

You do realize that 9 out of 10 years in the 30's we carried a trade surplus, right??

Your protectionism would lead to more job losses in 1 year, than in the past 15 due to Nafta.

Under NAFTA, we have seen record EXPORTS....as other countries rise up, they will demand MORE of our products and services. Your protectionism will not only punish AMerican workers, it will close those markets that might otherwise be open too us. You will then have a situation where those countries will never be able to rise to our level, (or close) never be able put in place those policies YOU say must be in place prior to trade.

Free trade EXPANDS jobs because it opens markets. It helps consumers with lower prices and greater choice. Its amazing that anyone can be against that trifecta.

Expands jobs? Not in the US, however the Chinese and Indians would like to thank you for expanding the job base to their countries, while not subjecting them to the same standards & practices that we put on ourselves.

Or should we not have such rules in place for American companies, and allow everyone to just poison food, use lead-based paint on toys that make our children sick, while lowering the level of customer service.

And let's keep having almost no tariffs on imports, while our "trading partners" put massive tariffs on American goods. yeah that's fair, and really working out well for us.

mingmen

Quote: Originally posted by NCMike06
Free trade EXPANDS jobs because it opens markets. It helps consumers with lower prices and greater choice. Its amazing that anyone can be against that trifecta.

except that it also leads to our money being as valuable as pesos

harley-davidson

Quote: Originally posted by mingmen
except that it also leads to our money being as valuable as pesos

It also leads to American workers competing with third world countries that make .10 a week for 6 - 12 hour days ...all fine for NCMoron because it will never affect him :rolleyes:

iatebethO

Quote: Originally posted by harley-davidson
It also leads to American workers competing with third world countries that make .10 a week for 6 - 12 hour days ...all fine for NCMoron because it will never affect him :rolleyes:

I wouldn't be to sure of that. The misery that is the result of the Bush economy is spreading.

I doubt that the brain dead right-wing fanatics posting here will remain untouched by the miserable Bush economy.

The question is - will any of them be man enough to admit failing victim to their hero's failure.

modeams

Quote: Originally posted by Bist Meshugeh
:rolleyes:

Read somthing besides qrmag.com

hilarious :rolleyes:

modeams

Quote: Originally posted by VacateTheWord
U.S. government analysts were not alone in these views. In the late spring of 2002 I participated in a Washington meeting about Iraqi WMD. Those present included nearly twenty former inspectors from the United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM), the force established in 1991 to oversee the elimination of WMD in Iraq. One of the senior people put a question to the group: Did anyone in the room doubt that Iraq was currently operating a secret centrifuge plant? No one did. Three people added that they believed Iraq was also operating a secret calutron plant (a facility for separating uranium isotopes).

Other nations' intelligence services were similarly aligned with U.S. views. Somewhat remarkably, given how adamantly Germany would oppose the war, the German Federal Intelligence Service held the bleakest view of all, arguing that Iraq might be able to build a nuclear weapon within three years. Israel, Russia, Britain, China, and even France held positions similar to that of the United States; France's President Jacques Chirac told Time magazine last February, "There is a problem—the probable possession of weapons of mass destruction by an uncontrollable country, Iraq. The international community is right ... in having decided Iraq should be disarmed." In sum, no one doubted that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.

~ Kenneth Pollack

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200401/pollack

Thank you. And if that article is indeed accurate, you are correct, sir.

cecilturtle06

Quote: Originally posted by NCMike06
Piss poor attempt, even by your standards...I'll actually take this as an agreement on the issue.

What, can't see beyond the article, or your nose?

booybob

Mike, I guess this article is bragging about the benefits of outsourcing.

I also guess you can take furniture and appliances off of your list

I wonder how the abandoned workers will fell. I wonder if they think this is a net gain for them,the economy and the country or is this just another get richer quicker scheme by the CEO's of these companies.

La-Z-Boy And Whirlpool
Moving To Mexico
It Ain't Lookin' Good Folks
By Neal Ross
4-7-8

More bad news on the economic front, two companies, La-Z-Boy and Whirlpool are giving out termination notices and moving their operations to Mexico. Hundreds of workers in the Dayton and Cleveland areas will soon be out of jobs when the new facilities in Mexico open in January.

La-Z-Boy's CEO stated that, "Speed to market for custom orders is a tenet of our brand promise to the consumer and the strength of our U.S. facilities enables us to deliver on that promise. With its proximity to the U.S. and the lower cost structure inherent in a Mexican-based operation, we made the decision to transition our domestic cutting and sewing operations while streamlining the assembly aspect of production in the United States."
La-Z-Boy also stated, "Our new Mexican facility will be able to rapidly supply our domestic plants with cut-and-sewn fabrics and leather for custom orders and will complement the existing cut-and sew program from China, which supplies our U.S. manufacturing operations with kits for our high-volume SKUs."
Just business as usual in the good ole US of A, right? I guess if you call stabbing the people of this country in the back for profit business as usual, yeah it is.

Our government and the Chairman of the Federal Reserve Board refuse to admit that this country is, and has been for quite some time, in a recession. It could be worse, we could be in a depression. I wonder, how many people understand the difference?

According to the dictionary a recession is a slowdown of economic growth or output. A depression on the other hand is a recession coupled with an increase in unemployment.

Our government is fond of using statistics to prove that unemployment hasn't drastically risen, which would indicate a depression. However, they fail to mention that far too many Americans have lost their jobs, good paying jobs with benefits and a decent salary, only to be forced to accept a job with cheaper wages and less benefits. So, while the statistics may make it seem like things aren't that bad, the truth is that many people in this country are struggling to make ends meet. I find it interesting that when George W. Bush took office we were at the end of a recession, and now that he is ready to leave office we are once again in a recession.

Getting back to my opening comments, that Whirlpool and La-Z-Boy have decided to close down part of their operation here and move it to Mexico, they are not alone when it comes to moving jobs out of the United States, displacing American workers for cheap foreign labor.

David Zielengziger wrote an article back in 2003 entitled US Companies Moving More Jobs Overseas. In it he wrote about how many US corporations are sending more and more high tech jobs to places like India and China, but they are keeping it a secret, except to those who lose their jobs because of it, for fear of backlash from the public.

In his article he stated that Morgan Stanley estimated the number of U.S. jobs outsourced to India would double to 150,000 and that as many as two million white collar jobs such as programmers, software engineers would move to countries where the wages were cheaper by the year 2014.

CNN ran an article on January 19, 2004 about the very same subject. According to their article there was a labor group which called themselves the Washington Alliance of Technology Workers who published a power point presentation on their website entitled Thinking About India. Senior Vice President Brian Valentine cited all the advantages of moving business to India, saying a company could get "two heads for the price of one."
http://money.cnn.com/2004/01/19/new...shore/index.htm

Microsoft CEO Bill Gates has been making repeated calls for an increase in the cap for H1B visas to allow for the importation of workers from overseas. Gates claims that there just aren't enough qualified workers to fill the positions. He fails to mention that most of these workers are paid less than what their American counterparts would be and that why should anyone take the time to get a degree in a career when the prospect of losing your job to an imported worker, or have it outsourced is always on the horizon?

Many of these companies are reluctant to talk about outsourcing for fear of the public outcry. Jack Trout, a member of Trout & Partners, a marketing strategy company made the statement that "Nobody has come up with a way to spin it in a positive way." Gee, I wonder why? Maybe because other than boosting corporate profits, there is no way to spin it positively for the American worker.

According to the AFL/CIO, the problem of jobs lost by American workers is huge. According to statistics presented on their webpage, since 2001 two and a half million manufacturing jobs and more than 850,000 professional service and information sector jobs have been lost.

The following statistics are straight from there webpage, which can be found

http://www.aflcio.org/issues/jobsec...ng_problems.cfm

How Many Jobs Have We Lost?

More than 3 million manufacturing jobs have disappeared since 1998, and the Economic Policy Institute estimates 59 percent or 1.78 million of these jobs have been lost due to the explosion in the U.S. manufacturing trade deficit over the period.

Goldman Sachs estimates 400,000�_600,000 professional services and information sector jobs moved overseas in the past few years, accounting for about half of the total net job loss in the sector over the period. A Deloitte Research survey found one-third of all major financial institutions are already sending work offshore, with 75 percent reporting they would do so within the next 24 months. A U.C. Berkeley study found 25,000 to 30,000 new outsourcing-related jobs advertised in India by U.S. firms in just one month in 2003.
One service sector hard hit by job losses is information technology, especially software. The pro-outsourcing consulting firm Global Insight estimates we lost 104,000 information technology jobs to offshore outsourcing between 2000 and 2003, more than a quarter of the 372,000 jobs lost in the sector overall during the period. The Economic Policy Institute found employment in U.S. software-producing industries fell by 128,000 jobs from 2000 to early 2004, while about 100,000 new jobs producing software for export to the U.S. were created in India over the same period of time.

States are outsourcing public sector jobs as well, though most state governments do not know exactly how many. At least forty states contract out administration of electronic benefit cards for the food stamps program offshore. In one audit, the state of Washington found 36 out of 41 agencies were contracting out work overseas. A recent study by INPUT Research projects outsourcing of state and local government technology contracts will grow from $10 billion last year to $23 billion in 2008.
From November 2002 to January 2004, the U.S. Department of Labor certified 246,398 workers who lost their jobs due to trade for Trade Adjustment Assistance (TAA). This is in addition to the estimated1,112,775 workers who were certified for TAA between 1994 and the end of 2002. These figures are very under-inclusive: they only count workers who know about the TAA program, apply for it, and qualify under the program's strict eligibility requirements. The numbers do not include most service sector workers or workers who have lost their jobs due to shifts in production to China neither group is eligible for TAA. Nor do they include workers erroneously denied TAA certification by the Labor Department.
The Economic Policy Institute estimates that between 1993 and 2000, our lopsided trade policies, reflected in the explosive increase in the U.S. trade deficit, cost Americans a net 3 million jobs and job opportunities. The growth in the NAFTA trade deficit alone is associated with nearly 900,000 lost jobs and job opportunities through 2002.

How Many Jobs Will Be Lost?

Forrester Research Inc. predicts U.S. employers will move 3.4 million white-collar jobs and $136 billion in wages overseas by 2015. The outplacement firm Challenger, Gray and Christmas estimates the number of service-sector jobs moving overseas each year will hit 588,000 by 2005. A University of California at Berkeley report finds 14 million jobs are at risk of being sent offshore, and predicts job losses will exceed the Forrester study's projections.

Gartner Inc., a high-tech forecasting firm, estimates 10 percent of computer services and software jobs will be moved overseas by the end of this year, while a study by Meta group projects 40 percent of corporate tech operations will move offshore by 2008.
A survey by Deloitte Research found the world's 100 largest financial services firms expect to shift $356 billion worth of operations and about two million jobs to low-wage countries over the next five years. Another Deloitte survey of 42 global telecom operators projects 275,000 jobs in the sector will be sent off-shore by 2008.

Alan Tonelson of the U.S. Business and Industrial Council said that these companies that offshore their labor are "are paying Chinese wages and selling at U.S. prices," He went on to say that, "They're not creating better living standards for America."

Forrester Research is a research company with the following mission statement,

"Forrester Research, Inc. (Nasdaq: FORR) is an independent technology and market research company that provides pragmatic and forward-thinking advice to global leaders in business and technology. For more than 24 years, Forrester has been making leaders successful every day through its proprietary research, consulting, events, and peer-to-peer executive programs."

In November of 2002 they produced a list of projected jobs that would be moved overseas by the year 2015. Among those listed, 288,000 managerial jobs, 472,000 jobs in the computer industry, 184,000 architectural jobs, and a staggering 1.6 million office jobs.

Around the same time the Paaras Group which states "Our mission is to help our clients excel. We are partners in their success. Our primary goal is to add significant value to their business by facilitating implementation of innovative and cost-effective solutions. Typically, we seek to add value equivalent of at least 10-20 times our professional fees." produced a chart that compared the savings for companies between salaries paid to U.S. workers than those paid to workers in India.

For instance a software programmer in the U.S. earned $66,000 per year, compared to $10,000 per year in India. In the U.S. a mechanical engineer would be paid $55,000, while their counterpart in India a mere $5,900, an IT Manager in the U.S. $$55,000 and in India only $8,500.

These figures do not bode well for American workers. You might be wondering what President Bush has to say about all these jobs being sent overseas? In his annual economic report for the year 2004, President Bush stated, "One facet of increased services trade is the increased use of offshore outsourcing in which a company relocates labor-intensive service industry functions to another country... The principal novelty of outsourcing services is the means by which foreign purchases are delivered... The basic economic forces behind the transactions are the same, however. When a good or service is produced more easily abroad, it makes more sense to import it than to make or provide it domestically." - February, 2004 Economic Report of the President, page 229.

Following the report, N. Gregory Mankis, Chairman of the President's Council of Economic Advisors, made the following comments, "I think outsourcing is a growing phenomenon, but it's something that we should realize is probably a plus for the economy in the long run... More things are tradeable than were tradeable in the past and that's a good thing... Outsourcing is sort of the latest manifestation of the gains from trade..."

The gains from trade. Who is gaining, not the American worker when they lose their job to someone in India, China or some other country that pays substantially lower wages than their American counterpart.

These corporations could care less about the workers they displace. They make grandiose claims that they are retraining these displaced workers, but what skills are they learning, and what will their jobs be like compared to the ones they lose?

I was a displaced worker, going from a job making $18 an hour with good benefits, to a job making $12 an hour. So I have an idea of what these displaced workers are going through. As my utility bills continue to increase, my wages go up in much smaller increments, making keeping up harder and harder to do.

All of this so our companies can show a profit, so that their stock value goes up. The whole while the CEO's of these companies are raking in huge salaries. In his book Take This Job and Ship It, Senator Bryon Dorgan said that if the minimum wage had kept pace with the salaries of these CEO's it would now be $26 an hour. Think about that.

The fact of the matter is that our economy is in the tank. With the housing foreclosure crisis, and out jobs being sent overseas in record numbers, this country is heading for disaster.

The whole while our government has its head so far up its collective behind that they don't see the truth of it. America used to be a manufacturing giant. Now we import more than we produce. As the wages earned by Americans goes down, so does the taxable income for our government to draw from and spend as they so eagerly do. You would think that even the dumbest of them would realize this, but obviously that is asking too much of them. They still give these corporations tax breaks on their overseas operations.

Things are only going to get worse, if they ever do turn around for the better. I can see it getting very ugly, very quickly in this country. I just hope people are prepared for what is coming at them like a freight train.

Billyfromsphily

Quote: Originally posted by NCMike06
Maybe you missed the meaning of the post??? And I defend him when the attacks from the left are lies and distortions (as most are)...

This from someone who stated that "HITLER WASN"T SO BAD"!

How warped are you????????????????????????????

NickNuke

Dude, don't both. These guys are Monday morning quaterbacks and live by the term "hindsight is 20/20".

Dems never make mistakes, because they never do anything but tax us to death (or bomb aspirin factories as a show of force. Or bomb an innocent country such as Serbia)

mingmen

Quote: Originally posted by VacateTheWord
As for 9/11 and Iraq - It is a fact that Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was in Iraq during the invasion.
As a refresher, he is the former leader of Al Qaeda in Iraq. Al Qaeda in Iraq is not the group responsible for 9/11.

booybob

Quote: Originally posted by booybob
Mike, I guess this article is bragging about the benefits of outsourcing.

I also guess you can take furniture and appliances off of your list

I wonder how the abandoned workers will fell. I wonder if they think this is a net gain for them,the economy and the country or is this just another get richer quicker scheme by the CEO's of these companies.

La-Z-Boy And Whirlpool
Moving To Mexico
It Ain't Lookin' Good Folks
By Neal Ross
4-7-8

More bad news on the economic front, two companies, La-Z-Boy and Whirlpool are giving out termination notices and moving their operations to Mexico. Hundreds of workers in the Dayton and Cleveland areas will soon be out of jobs when the new facilities in Mexico open in January.

La-Z-Boy's CEO stated that, "Speed to market for custom orders is a tenet of our brand promise to the consumer and the strength of our U.S. facilities enables us to deliver on that promise. With its proximity to the U.S. and the lower cost structure inherent in a Mexican-based operation, we made the decision to transition our domestic cutting and sewing operations while streamlining the assembly aspect of production in the United States."
La-Z-Boy also stated, "Our new Mexican facility will be able to rapidly supply our domestic plants with cut-and-sewn fabrics and leather for custom orders and will complement the existing cut-and sew program from China, which supplies our U.S. manufacturing operations with kits for our high-volume SKUs."
Just business as usual in the good ole US of A, right? I guess if you call stabbing the people of this country in the back for profit business as usual, yeah it is.

Our government and the Chairman of the Federal Reserve Board refuse to admit that this country is, and has been for quite some time, in a recession. It could be worse, we could be in a depression. I wonder, how many people understand the difference?

According to the dictionary a recession is a slowdown of economic growth or output. A depression on the other hand is a recession coupled with an increase in unemployment.

Our government is fond of using statistics to prove that unemployment hasn't drastically risen, which would indicate a depression. However, they fail to mention that far too many Americans have lost their jobs, good paying jobs with benefits and a decent salary, only to be forced to accept a job with cheaper wages and less benefits. So, while the statistics may make it seem like things aren't that bad, the truth is that many people in this country are struggling to make ends meet. I find it interesting that when George W. Bush took office we were at the end of a recession, and now that he is ready to leave office we are once again in a recession.

Getting back to my opening comments, that Whirlpool and La-Z-Boy have decided to close down part of their operation here and move it to Mexico, they are not alone when it comes to moving jobs out of the United States, displacing American workers for cheap foreign labor.

David Zielengziger wrote an article back in 2003 entitled US Companies Moving More Jobs Overseas. In it he wrote about how many US corporations are sending more and more high tech jobs to places like India and China, but they are keeping it a secret, except to those who lose their jobs because of it, for fear of backlash from the public.

In his article he stated that Morgan Stanley estimated the number of U.S. jobs outsourced to India would double to 150,000 and that as many as two million white collar jobs such as programmers, software engineers would move to countries where the wages were cheaper by the year 2014.

CNN ran an article on January 19, 2004 about the very same subject. According to their article there was a labor group which called themselves the Washington Alliance of Technology Workers who published a power point presentation on their website entitled Thinking About India. Senior Vice President Brian Valentine cited all the advantages of moving business to India, saying a company could get "two heads for the price of one."
http://money.cnn.com/2004/01/19/new...shore/index.htm

Microsoft CEO Bill Gates has been making repeated calls for an increase in the cap for H1B visas to allow for the importation of workers from overseas. Gates claims that there just aren't enough qualified workers to fill the positions. He fails to mention that most of these workers are paid less than what their American counterparts would be and that why should anyone take the time to get a degree in a career when the prospect of losing your job to an imported worker, or have it outsourced is always on the horizon?

Many of these companies are reluctant to talk about outsourcing for fear of the public outcry. Jack Trout, a member of Trout & Partners, a marketing strategy company made the statement that "Nobody has come up with a way to spin it in a positive way." Gee, I wonder why? Maybe because other than boosting corporate profits, there is no way to spin it positively for the American worker.

According to the AFL/CIO, the problem of jobs lost by American workers is huge. According to statistics presented on their webpage, since 2001 two and a half million manufacturing jobs and more than 850,000 professional service and information sector jobs have been lost.

The following statistics are straight from there webpage, which can be found

http://www.aflcio.org/issues/jobsec...ng_problems.cfm

How Many Jobs Have We Lost?

More than 3 million manufacturing jobs have disappeared since 1998, and the Economic Policy Institute estimates 59 percent or 1.78 million of these jobs have been lost due to the explosion in the U.S. manufacturing trade deficit over the period.

Goldman Sachs estimates 400,000�_600,000 professional services and information sector jobs moved overseas in the past few years, accounting for about half of the total net job loss in the sector over the period. A Deloitte Research survey found one-third of all major financial institutions are already sending work offshore, with 75 percent reporting they would do so within the next 24 months. A U.C. Berkeley study found 25,000 to 30,000 new outsourcing-related jobs advertised in India by U.S. firms in just one month in 2003.
One service sector hard hit by job losses is information technology, especially software. The pro-outsourcing consulting firm Global Insight estimates we lost 104,000 information technology jobs to offshore outsourcing between 2000 and 2003, more than a quarter of the 372,000 jobs lost in the sector overall during the period. The Economic Policy Institute found employment in U.S. software-producing industries fell by 128,000 jobs from 2000 to early 2004, while about 100,000 new jobs producing software for export to the U.S. were created in India over the same period of time.

States are outsourcing public sector jobs as well, though most state governments do not know exactly how many. At least forty states contract out administration of electronic benefit cards for the food stamps program offshore. In one audit, the state of Washington found 36 out of 41 agencies were contracting out work overseas. A recent study by INPUT Research projects outsourcing of state and local government technology contracts will grow from $10 billion last year to $23 billion in 2008.
From November 2002 to January 2004, the U.S. Department of Labor certified 246,398 workers who lost their jobs due to trade for Trade Adjustment Assistance (TAA). This is in addition to the estimated1,112,775 workers who were certified for TAA between 1994 and the end of 2002. These figures are very under-inclusive: they only count workers who know about the TAA program, apply for it, and qualify under the program's strict eligibility requirements. The numbers do not include most service sector workers or workers who have lost their jobs due to shifts in production to China neither group is eligible for TAA. Nor do they include workers erroneously denied TAA certification by the Labor Department.
The Economic Policy Institute estimates that between 1993 and 2000, our lopsided trade policies, reflected in the explosive increase in the U.S. trade deficit, cost Americans a net 3 million jobs and job opportunities. The growth in the NAFTA trade deficit alone is associated with nearly 900,000 lost jobs and job opportunities through 2002.

How Many Jobs Will Be Lost?

Forrester Research Inc. predicts U.S. employers will move 3.4 million white-collar jobs and $136 billion in wages overseas by 2015. The outplacement firm Challenger, Gray and Christmas estimates the number of service-sector jobs moving overseas each year will hit 588,000 by 2005. A University of California at Berkeley report finds 14 million jobs are at risk of being sent offshore, and predicts job losses will exceed the Forrester study's projections.

Gartner Inc., a high-tech forecasting firm, estimates 10 percent of computer services and software jobs will be moved overseas by the end of this year, while a study by Meta group projects 40 percent of corporate tech operations will move offshore by 2008.
A survey by Deloitte Research found the world's 100 largest financial services firms expect to shift $356 billion worth of operations and about two million jobs to low-wage countries over the next five years. Another Deloitte survey of 42 global telecom operators projects 275,000 jobs in the sector will be sent off-shore by 2008.

Alan Tonelson of the U.S. Business and Industrial Council said that these companies that offshore their labor are "are paying Chinese wages and selling at U.S. prices," He went on to say that, "They're not creating better living standards for America."

Forrester Research is a research company with the following mission statement,

"Forrester Research, Inc. (Nasdaq: FORR) is an independent technology and market research company that provides pragmatic and forward-thinking advice to global leaders in business and technology. For more than 24 years, Forrester has been making leaders successful every day through its proprietary research, consulting, events, and peer-to-peer executive programs."

In November of 2002 they produced a list of projected jobs that would be moved overseas by the year 2015. Among those listed, 288,000 managerial jobs, 472,000 jobs in the computer industry, 184,000 architectural jobs, and a staggering 1.6 million office jobs.

Around the same time the Paaras Group which states "Our mission is to help our clients excel. We are partners in their success. Our primary goal is to add significant value to their business by facilitating implementation of innovative and cost-effective solutions. Typically, we seek to add value equivalent of at least 10-20 times our professional fees." produced a chart that compared the savings for companies between salaries paid to U.S. workers than those paid to workers in India.

For instance a software programmer in the U.S. earned $66,000 per year, compared to $10,000 per year in India. In the U.S. a mechanical engineer would be paid $55,000, while their counterpart in India a mere $5,900, an IT Manager in the U.S. $$55,000 and in India only $8,500.

These figures do not bode well for American workers. You might be wondering what President Bush has to say about all these jobs being sent overseas? In his annual economic report for the year 2004, President Bush stated, "One facet of increased services trade is the increased use of offshore outsourcing in which a company relocates labor-intensive service industry functions to another country... The principal novelty of outsourcing services is the means by which foreign purchases are delivered... The basic economic forces behind the transactions are the same, however. When a good or service is produced more easily abroad, it makes more sense to import it than to make or provide it domestically." - February, 2004 Economic Report of the President, page 229.

Following the report, N. Gregory Mankis, Chairman of the President's Council of Economic Advisors, made the following comments, "I think outsourcing is a growing phenomenon, but it's something that we should realize is probably a plus for the economy in the long run... More things are tradeable than were tradeable in the past and that's a good thing... Outsourcing is sort of the latest manifestation of the gains from trade..."

The gains from trade. Who is gaining, not the American worker when they lose their job to someone in India, China or some other country that pays substantially lower wages than their American counterpart.

These corporations could care less about the workers they displace. They make grandiose claims that they are retraining these displaced workers, but what skills are they learning, and what will their jobs be like compared to the ones they lose?

I was a displaced worker, going from a job making $18 an hour with good benefits, to a job making $12 an hour. So I have an idea of what these displaced workers are going through. As my utility bills continue to increase, my wages go up in much smaller increments, making keeping up harder and harder to do.

All of this so our companies can show a profit, so that their stock value goes up. The whole while the CEO's of these companies are raking in huge salaries. In his book Take This Job and Ship It, Senator Bryon Dorgan said that if the minimum wage had kept pace with the salaries of these CEO's it would now be $26 an hour. Think about that.

The fact of the matter is that our economy is in the tank. With the housing foreclosure crisis, and out jobs being sent overseas in record numbers, this country is heading for disaster.

The whole while our government has its head so far up its collective behind that they don't see the truth of it. America used to be a manufacturing giant. Now we import more than we produce. As the wages earned by Americans goes down, so does the taxable income for our government to draw from and spend as they so eagerly do. You would think that even the dumbest of them would realize this, but obviously that is asking too much of them. They still give these corporations tax breaks on their overseas operations.

Things are only going to get worse, if they ever do turn around for the better. I can see it getting very ugly, very quickly in this country. I just hope people are prepared for what is coming at them like a freight train.

Come on mike, explain the benefits of outsourcing again :D

NCMike06

Quote: Originally posted by booybob
Come on mike, explain the benefits of outsourcing again :D

What the matter, you asked me to name 5 things we manufactured in the US..... Within the list I provided are thousands of different products.... Now you want to argue outsourcing... ??

Lets see you man up and admit defeat on that first question, and then I will educate you on outsourcing.

booybob

most of the products are not made in America. they may be assembled here but they all have
many components that were made overseas.
please explain the benefits we will receive from the following quotes

1-"The Economic Policy Institute estimates that between 1993 and 2000, our lopsided trade policies, reflected in the explosive increase in the U.S. trade deficit, cost Americans a net 3 million jobs and job opportunities. The growth in the NAFTA trade deficit alone is associated with nearly 900,000 lost jobs and job opportunities through 2002."

2-"How Many Jobs Will Be Lost?

Forrester Research Inc. predicts U.S. employers will move 3.4 million white-collar jobs and $136 billion in wages overseas by 2015. The outplacement firm Challenger, Gray and Christmas estimates the number of service-sector jobs moving overseas each year will hit 588,000 by 2005. A University of California at Berkeley report finds 14 million jobs are at risk of being sent offshore, and predicts job losses will exceed the Forrester study's projections."

SHOULD THE AMERICAN WORKER HAVE TO CHOOSE BETWEEN HIS JOB AND SLAVE WAGES?
3-"For instance a software programmer in the U.S. earned $66,000 per year, compared to $10,000 per year in India. In the U.S. a mechanical engineer would be paid $55,000, while their counterpart in India a mere $5,900, an IT Manager in the U.S. $$55,000 and in India only $8,500.

A displaced worker, going from a job making $18 an hour with good benefits, to a job making $12 an hour. So I have an idea of what these displaced workers are going through. As my utility bills continue to increase, my wages go up in much smaller increments, making keeping up harder and harder to do.

All of this so our companies can show a profit, so that their stock value goes up. The whole while the CEO's of these companies are raking in huge salaries. In his book Take This Job and Ship It, Senator Bryon Dorgan said that if the minimum wage had kept pace with the salaries of these CEO's it would now be $26 an hour. Think about that.

If you want me to admit delete I will :rolleyes:

please respond to the question i just posed.
no more deflections please :D

booybob

Quote: Originally posted by booybob
most of the products are not made in America. they may be assembled here but they all have
many components that were made overseas.
please explain the benefits we will receive from the following quotes

1-"The Economic Policy Institute estimates that between 1993 and 2000, our lopsided trade policies, reflected in the explosive increase in the U.S. trade deficit, cost Americans a net 3 million jobs and job opportunities. The growth in the NAFTA trade deficit alone is associated with nearly 900,000 lost jobs and job opportunities through 2002."

2-"How Many Jobs Will Be Lost?

Forrester Research Inc. predicts U.S. employers will move 3.4 million white-collar jobs and $136 billion in wages overseas by 2015. The outplacement firm Challenger, Gray and Christmas estimates the number of service-sector jobs moving overseas each year will hit 588,000 by 2005. A University of California at Berkeley report finds 14 million jobs are at risk of being sent offshore, and predicts job losses will exceed the Forrester study's projections."

SHOULD THE AMERICAN WORKER HAVE TO CHOOSE BETWEEN HIS JOB AND SLAVE WAGES?
3-"For instance a software programmer in the U.S. earned $66,000 per year, compared to $10,000 per year in India. In the U.S. a mechanical engineer would be paid $55,000, while their counterpart in India a mere $5,900, an IT Manager in the U.S. $$55,000 and in India only $8,500.

A displaced worker, going from a job making $18 an hour with good benefits, to a job making $12 an hour. So I have an idea of what these displaced workers are going through. As my utility bills continue to increase, my wages go up in much smaller increments, making keeping up harder and harder to do.

All of this so our companies can show a profit, so that their stock value goes up. The whole while the CEO's of these companies are raking in huge salaries. In his book Take This Job and Ship It, Senator Bryon Dorgan said that if the minimum wage had kept pace with the salaries of these CEO's it would now be $26 an hour. Think about that.

If you want me to admit delete I will :rolleyes:

please respond to the question i just posed.
no more deflections please :D

still waiting Mike :D

Rush Has AIDS

Quote: Originally posted by mingmen
As for 9/11 and Iraq - It is a fact that Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was in Iraq during the invasion.
As a refresher, he is the former leader of Al Qaeda in Iraq. Al Qaeda in Iraq is not the group responsible for 9/11.

And there were members of AQ in the United States and England at the time of 9/11. I guess that means the US and the British are working with the terrorists too right?

When do we start bombing London? :ec:

Rush Has AIDS

Umm...umm...uhhh.... you're a commie! You're a commie! :parrot:

booybob

still no ncmike :bigthink: :bigthink: :bigthink: :bigthink: :bigthink:

mr wrong

Quote: Originally posted by NCMike06

Lets see you man up and admit defeat on that first question,

Oh look who's playing Mr. smug.

This thread a little safer for you??

Care to man up, and answer my question in that other thread??

harley-davidson

Quote: Originally posted by mr wrong
Oh look who's playing Mr. smug.

This thread a little safer for you??

Care to man up, and answer my question in that other thread??

:jj:

liberal_loosh

I'm a liberal, and the NATO news is good. It's good for everyone. It's not good for you and bad for me. It's not republicans vs. democrats, Mike. It's America vs. Islamic extremists.
Start thinking logically.

liberal_loosh

Quote: Originally posted by Stonewall
And Al Qaeda launched an attack from Iraq to Jordon where Zarqawi's cell in Iraq killed Laurence Foley in Amman. That was in 2002.

Our CIA, Condi Rice, and Robert Gates have stated otherwise.
I trust them.

Stonewall

Quote: Originally posted by liberal_loosh
Our CIA, Condi Rice, and Robert Gates have stated otherwise.
I trust them.

It's pretty well known what happened to Foley.

liberal_loosh

Quote: Originally posted by NickNuke
Dude, don't both. These guys are Monday morning quaterbacks and live by the term "hindsight is 20/20".

Dems never make mistakes, because they never do anything but tax us to death (or bomb aspirin factories as a show of force. Or bomb an innocent country such as Serbia)

I was against the Iraq war before it started. No Monday morning QB here.
I felt the resources should have been used in Afghanistan.

My income tax rate is the same now as it was under Clinton.
And the republican nominee for president, voted against both the Bush tax cuts.
So your fun talking point is clearly no longer valid.

You would agree the budget needs balanced. You can spend less, or tax more,
The republicans had 6 years to spend less, but they choose to irresponsibly spend more then any other past government in the history of the US. You cannot blame the dems for that. That debt now needs paid. The next president, regardless of party, will have to deal with it.

liberal_loosh

Quote: Originally posted by Stonewall
It's pretty well known what happened to Foley.

Your argument is not with me. It's with the CIA and republican secretary of state Condi Rice.

Stonewall

Quote: Originally posted by liberal_loosh
Your argument is not with me. It's with the CIA and republican secretary of state Condi Rice.

Where is the CIA and Sec. of State commenting on the Foley attack?

cecilturtle06

Quote: Originally posted by booybob
still no ncmike :bigthink: :bigthink: :bigthink: :bigthink: :bigthink:

He's still debating adding you to his 5:30 am breakfast routine.

modeams

:crazy:

SeattleWilly

Umm... what fucking planet have you been on?

NCMike06

Quote: Originally posted by booybob
still waiting Mike :D

I'll respond in the coming days... be patient young protectionist. Your lessons will be well worth the wait.

Fdubya247

Quote: Originally posted by NCDike06
I'll respond in the coming days... be patient young protectionist. Your lessons will be well worth the wait.

:lol:

[Bugs]What a maroon...![/Bugs]

Kream-Aid Mike06
Brainwashed Member

Swallowing That Sweet GOP Nectar

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