Obama calls gas tax relief a political ploy, as Clinton stands by her proposal
By Peter Nicholas and Noam N. Levey, Los Angeles Times Staff Writers
5:17 PM PDT, May 3, 2008
Indianapolis -- Barack Obama on Saturday cited an escalating argument over a proposed federal gas tax holiday as evidence that his Democratic presidential rival, Hillary Rodham Clinton, is prepared to tout dubious policy if it might help her win an election.
Speaking to an audience at a high school today, Obama said the proposal -- which also is backed by the presumptive GOP nominee, John McCain -- would save people the equivalent of half a tank of gasoline. That assumes the oil companies don't raise prices to fill the gap left by the tax holiday, he said.
"So this is not about getting you through the summer, it's about getting elected," Obama said. "And this is what passes for leadership in Washington -- phony ideas, calculated to win elections instead of actually solving problems."
But Clinton redoubled her defense of the proposal to temporarily suspend the 18.4-cents-a-gallon tax as she campaigned across North Carolina on Saturday.
"I have met a lot of folks in the last couple of weeks who are literally sick to their stomach when they pull in to fill up their gas tank," Clinton told supporters in Wake Forest, N.C.
Clinton increasingly has made the gas tax holiday central to her argument that she understands voters' suffering and is prepared to take immediate steps to give them relief.
In Gastonia, N.C., a manufacturing town outside Charlotte devastated by competition from Chinese textiles, Clinton was taunted by a protester who criticized her support of the idea.
But she eagerly fired back.
"I see that sign over there," she told the man. "A guy's got a sign saying a gas tax holiday is blatant pandering. Well, I'd rather the oil companies pay the gas tax than you pay the gas tax this summer."
The crowd cheered her pledge to go after oil companies, oil traders and members of OPEC for pushing up the price of oil by manipulating the market. "I am tired of being a patsy, of sitting here and taking it," she said.
In the weekend before the primaries in Indiana and North Carolina, Obama sought to beat back perceptions that he is out of touch with voters.
Campaigning in Indianapolis, Obama was introduced not by a politician but by an Amtrak machinist worried about losing his job. The candidate also took the stage briefly with his wife, Michelle, and two young daughters.
Clinton and Obama recently have aired TV ads critical of one another's positions on the gas tax. Economists, environmentalists and other experts have denounced the idea, saying that it would favor the oil industry rather than consumers.
On Saturday, Obama mentioned that Clinton's proposal had been praised by a Shell Oil lobbyist. His campaign later said that he was talking about Steve Elmendorf, a Clinton supporter.
A Clinton spokesman, Phil Singer, countered that Obama had supported a gas-tax suspension when he served in the Illinois Legislature. The Clinton campaign also noted that she would pay for the tax suspension through a windfall profits tax on oil companies.
"Considering that Sen. Obama voted to suspend the gas tax three times when gas cost less than $2 a gallon -- and has an energy lobbyist chairing his Indiana campaign -- it's hard to take his latest criticisms very seriously. Sen. Obama wants Americans to pay the gas tax, but Sen. Clinton thinks the big oil companies should pay it this summer."
Clinton's campaign was referring to Kip Tew, an Obama supporter in Indiana who has done lobbying work for energy interests.
Asked about Obama's previous votes in favor of a gas-tax suspension, his campaign said his position was based on the expectation the savings would be passed on to consumers. When he learned that did not happen, he voted against a permanent suspension of Illinois' portion of the gasoline tax, his campaign said.
With polls showing Clinton leading in Indiana and closing the gap in North Carolina, Obama is retooling his stump speech to broaden his appeal among working-class voters. Rather than talking abstractly about his desire to change the political tone in Washington, he moves quickly from an introductory greeting to a discussion of pocketbook concerns.
Less than two minutes into a speech in Charlotte, N.C., on Friday, he was talking about local job losses.
"At the end of the month, it's harder to make ends meet, and people sit around the kitchen table and try to figure out how to pay this bill and put this bill off," he said.
Clinton also spread a populist message to enthusiastic crowds Friday and Saturday as she crisscrossed North Carolina, promising to take on price gougers and countries that she has accused of cheating America.
"We've had enough of the talk and the rhetoric. That's not going to solve our problems," she said Friday night at the North Carolina Democratic Party's Jefferson Jackson dinner at the state fairgrounds in Raleigh. "What we need is action."
Quote: Originally posted by danrich03 Most economists have said this is a dumb idea.
Hillary is triangulating.
Hillary should know better. What she is saying now and what she has voted on in the past say different things. She is just playing to what she thinks people would like to hear.
What she and McSame are promoting has little to no support in Congress.
zimmie
Quote: Originally posted by danrich03 Most economists have said this is a dumb idea.
Hillary is triangulating.
Most Americans would rather see "big oil" (ExxonMobil etc..etc..) pay the gas tax for the summer, instead of themselves. Why would you rather pay it yourself?
Rush Has AIDS
Quote: Originally posted by zimmie Most Americans would rather see "big oil" (ExxonMobil etc..etc..) pay the gas tax for the summer, instead of themselves. Why would you rather pay it yourself?
The only thing we've been hearing on this subject is suspending the gas tax and nothing else, period. No one had made any suggestions about paying for it via other methods.
This is the first time we are hearing, well at least I am hearing, about having the tax suspension paid for by the oil companies. If the energy companies will pay for it, then I wouldn't be so opposed. If no one is paying for it, then the tax has to stay. An extra $30-40 in my pocket is not going to make a difference, and I would rather keep that money in the fund.
And no, Obama did not flip flop.
Reverend Tyler
How is he flip-flopping? He was on Meet The Press this morning saying the gas tax holiday didnt work in Illinois, so it was a mistake to vote for it, he wont make the same mistake again.
That is GOOD!
I dont want somebody who is willing to make the same mistakes over and over again just to be seen as unwavering. Its retarded.
Zimmie - Find ONE Economic expert who thinks this is a good idea. GO
Reverend Tyler
this is a flip flop, but "Lets destroy the 9th ward" "I dont remmeber saying that" in the span of 3 days is...
1. The oil companies will eat up a big piece of the Holiday tax. They will run up their domestic margins and you will not get a full tax cut in a reduction in price.
2. It undercuts the highway trust fund and sets up gasoline tax as a constant political issue.
3. It's a tax cut for the wealthy. People who drive alot will get the benefit and that is rich people.
4. It scrambles the incentives on fuel economy and climate change.
5. If you want to give people money there are better ways to give them the money and make sure the right people get it. Send them checks which is about to be done. Cut payroll taxes, increase food stamps. If you want to target relief these are a couple of ways to do it better.
6. If you think there is a short term problem in the oil market there are better ways to alleviate those pressures. Maybe a big draw down from the strategic patroleum reserve. Maybe some policies that might pop the speculative bubble.
AcquiringSignal
LOL!!!!
Do you really really want to get into a McCain vs Obama flip flopping contest.
Please let us know.
Rush Has AIDS
Last I heard the reserve was at 97% capacity. Why the President doesn't release 10% to the public is beyond me
Rush Has AIDS
You know there really is a difference between changing your mind, learning something new, and flip-flopping.
Based on the way people treat it around here, if you now know that there is no Santa Ca;us or Easter Bunny, that makes you a flip-flopper.
spankysxxx
Quote: Originally posted by zimmie Obama calls gas tax relief a political ploy, as Clinton stands by her proposal
By Peter Nicholas and Noam N. Levey, Los Angeles Times Staff Writers
5:17 PM PDT, May 3, 2008
You're kidding RIGHT?? Are we really going to start this flip-flop bullshit again? Ridiculous. I don't
think Mutt has the bandwidth to support all the shit that Bush & Co. has flip-flopped on. Trouble
is, Bush and Co. only flip-flops on things AFTER the event occurred instead of while it's happening.
It's as if they know they're doing something wrong but they can't help themselves.
Once again, I submit this for your approval.
acefree
zimmie is correct. he did flip on this issue. this proves he is flawed and human. and im not delusional that hes some fantasy savior that i always get accused of being delusional about.
i just think hes better than the other 2 candidates on most issues.
zimmie
Hillary is advocating that the tax still be collected, from the OIL COMPANIES....I guess after years of complaining about "big oil" those of you whining about the oil companies are content to pay whatever it costs. This is not a long term fix, she admits it. It's just a short term solution to help hard pressed Americans and truckers which has effected the price of food through the summer.
“I have advocated for a federal gas-tax holiday paid for by imposing an excess profits tax on the oil companies. Let the oil companies pay the federal gas tax for the next months!” said Clinton to thunderous applause.
She also said she wanted to poll Congress to see where they stand on the gas-tax holiday. “Do they stand with hard pressed Americans motorists who are trying to pay their gas bills at the gas stations, or do they, once again, stand with the oil companies?” she asked. “I want them to tell us, are they with us or against us when it comes to taking on the oil companies.”
Jazzy
This whole issue is a smoke screen perpetrated by big oil lobbyists. More than likely we'll get the holiday but it's nothing more than this administration giving us a piece of candy to try and distract us from the fact that we're being fucked up the ass with a gas nozzle.
zimmie
Quote: Originally posted by Jazzy This whole issue is a smoke screen perpetrated by big oil lobbyists. More than likely we'll get the holiday but it's nothing more than this administration giving us a piece of candy to try and distract us from the fact that we're being fucked up the ass with a gas nozzle.
The administration?....does Bush favor this?
JUST1COMMENT
Zimmie, if Bush did favor this, what would you think?
In Obama, I see someone who had already sold me on his candidacy, but with this gas tax issue, I'm even more sure about my choice.
McCain and Clinton talk to us like we're babies, so they offer short-term solutions to long-term problems. They're more interested in momentarily holding up a shiny object while everything else around us collapses. You people have no clue what flip-flop even means. Someone admitting a mistake isn't a flip-flopper. A flip-flopper is someone who takes one position, then the other... without admitting they have or that their initial position was a mistake.
Admitting you've made a mistake means you have a modicum of integrity.
zimmie
Quote: Originally posted by JUST1COMMENT Zimmie, if Bush did favor this, what would you think?
In Obama, I see someone who had already sold me on his candidacy, but with this gas tax issue, I'm even more sure about my choice.
McCain and Clinton talk to us like we're babies, so they offer short-term solutions to long-term problems. They're more interested in momentarily holding up a shiny object while everything else around us collapses. You people have no clue what flip-flop even means. Someone admitting a mistake isn't a flip-flopper. A flip-flopper is someone who takes one position, then the other... without admitting they have or that their initial position was a mistake.
Admitting you've made a mistake means you have a modicum of integrity.
then you're opposed to the oil companies paying the federal tax on gas for the next few months? thats the question....
Reverend Tyler
Quote: Originally posted by zimmie then you're opposed to the oil companies paying the federal tax on gas for the next few months? thats the question....
Since EVERY economist in America says its a horrible idea that will probably raise prices - yes.
Jazzy
Quote: Originally posted by zimmie then you're opposed to the oil companies paying the federal tax on gas for the next few months? thats the question....
Like another poster said, it makes no appreciable difference, therefore I don't care one way or another. What am I supposed to do? Buy 1000 gallons of gas so that I can save $180?
At least Obama isn't afraid of calling it what it is - a load of stupid nonsense.
acefree
Quote: Originally posted by zimmie then you're opposed to the oil companies paying the federal tax on gas for the next few months? thats the question....
I am apposed to that.
but i was also apposed to giving them income tax breaks. were you?
my company didnt get an income tax break.
in closing, i dont think government should penalize the oil companys, but i also dont think they should HELP them either. both are retarded. why does a company making record profits need freebees from bush? talk about corporate welfare......
acefree
Quote: Originally posted by Jazzy Like another poster said, it makes no appreciable difference, therefore I don't care one way or another. What am I supposed to do? Buy 1000 gallons of gas so that I can save $180?
At least Obama isn't afraid of calling it what it is - a load of stupid nonsense.
yet another reason why i like Obama.
Anogram
Quote: Originally posted by zimmie then you're opposed to the oil companies paying the federal tax on gas for the next few months? thats the question....
6 reasons why. 1 being that we would not see the full tax cut being promised by McSame and Hillary.
You continue to take the short sided view on this. Old politics continued.
zimmie
Quote: Originally posted by Reverend Tyler Since EVERY economist in America says its a horrible idea that will probably raise prices - yes.
probably raise prices?.....why would they raise the prices?
Jazzy
Quote: Originally posted by zimmie probably raise prices?.....why would they raise the prices?
Simple. The oil companies raise the cost of gas to cover what they're losing by paying the gas tax. Why wouldn't they? They've gotten away with everything else.
Abba
Quote: Originally posted by zimmie Most Americans would rather see "big oil" (ExxonMobil etc..etc..) pay the gas tax for the summer, instead of themselves. Why would you rather pay it yourself?
C'mon Zimmie, you know better. You really think Big Oil is just going to suck it up? You think they're some kind of patriots???
They will simply pass along the added expense to the consumer. Sure, prices would drop right away, but of course they'll simply rise over the course of a few weeks to make up for the "tax", and we'll be right back to where we were.
This is NOT a solution, merealy a politcal band aid with NO real effect. besides, that tax pays for highway and road infrastructure. Without it, you would see alot more of the Minnesota bridge collapse.
Let's be adults and look for mature solutions, not pandering ideas meant for the consumption of infantile mentalities.
The only way gas prices will come down is to lower demand. Can we agree on that? So then, how best to do that? Easy. Start investing heavily into alternative energy producing techs, like Solar, wind, and Geothermal.
If the federal government announces a plan to invest $10 billion dollars into a solar farm in parts of the Mojave that are uninhabited, expected to be online by next year and supply 50 million homes with electricity, you would see the price of oil drop like a fucking stone overnight.
As it stands now, the cost per barrel has $30-$50 built in as pure speculation on what MIGHT happen should the supply be disrupted, which, thanks to the oil men in the Whore house, is a constant threat as we continue to threaten a country which hasn't threatened us.
Watch more threatening Iran as a broader effort to keep the cost of oil high. You don't have to be some kind of world class economist to see this, but you do have to look for yourself and reaslise that those who you ardently support don't give a shit about you except that you're a paying buyer of what they're selling.
What they're selling, my friend, is oil. Until we have a government that isn't making money off us us, the American People, NOTHING will change. The sooner you and yours get that, the better.
Reverend Tyler
Quote: Originally posted by Jazzy Simple. The oil companies raise the cost of gas to cover what they're losing by paying the gas tax. Why wouldn't they? They've gotten away with everything else.
That added to the higher demand of both being in summer and people getting as much as they can at the "cheaper" rate
zimmie
Ok....so......the oil companies get 18 billion dollars of subsidies for exploration of oil from the government. I have heard ad naseum from some of you same people complaining about why we give subsidies to these companies who are making record profits. "Bush and his oil buddies"....is a familar refrain...
Are you opposed to them? Or do you believe we should continue to provide subsidies?
What will stopping these subsidies provide?
Who will then pay for the exploration of oil?
gazill
Quote: Originally posted by zimmie Most Americans would rather see "big oil" (ExxonMobil etc..etc..) pay the gas tax for the summer, instead of themselves. Why would you rather pay it yourself?
How about the government cut an equivalent amount of spending, to compensate for the loss of income from the per gallon gas tax? They never mention that idea.
chicagoirishtim
it's a shame we dont care about public transit in this country outside of a few cities
VacateTheWord
Quote: Originally posted by JUST1COMMENT Zimmie, if Bush did favor this, what would you think?
In Obama, I see someone who had already sold me on his candidacy, but with this gas tax issue, I'm even more sure about my choice.
McCain and Clinton talk to us like we're babies, so they offer short-term solutions to long-term problems. They're more interested in momentarily holding up a shiny object while everything else around us collapses. You people have no clue what flip-flop even means. Someone admitting a mistake isn't a flip-flopper. A flip-flopper is someone who takes one position, then the other... without admitting they have or that their initial position was a mistake.
Admitting you've made a mistake means you have a modicum of integrity.
All three candidates have a long-term solution to energy independence. What has been missing (or rather what the Democrats in Congress keep stopping) IS short-term solutions such as increased drilling domestically and, yes, "gimmicks" like the gas tax holiday. How long do you think it will take this country to become energy independent? An honest answer will tell you why we need those short-term solutions you and your out-of-touch candidate, Barack Obama, dismiss.
As for the gas tax holiday - yes, prices will go up regardless over the summer due to increased demand. However, the net increase will be offset by the gas tax holiday - in other words, if gas is to go up 50 cents then the holiday will offset that number. Working people will have some more money in their pocket - Obama should be ashamed.
acefree
Quote: Originally posted by VacateTheWord All three candidates have a long-term solution to energy independence. What has been missing (or rather what the Democrats in Congress keep stopping) IS short-term solutions such as increased drilling domestically and, yes, "gimmicks" like the gas tax holiday. How long do you think it will take this country to become energy independent? An honest answer will tell you why we need those short-term solutions you and your out-of-touch candidate, Barack Obama, dismiss.
.
quit with the spin, please. its not needed. u can be honest and still be against obama.
"What has been missing (or rather what the Democrats in Congress keep stopping) IS short-term solutions such as increased drilling domestically"
McCain voted against drilling in anwar too. the republican candidate for president is against it, and u ignore that and blame the evil democrats. why dont u speak intelligently on each issue and each person, and quit with the blanket labeling.
im a real conservative and we dont need short term solutions for anything. the economy will fix itself. shake outs are healthy. let it seek its own level.
acefree
Quote: Originally posted by zimmie Ok....so......the oil companies get 18 billion dollars of subsidies for exploration of oil from the government. I have heard ad naseum from some of you same people complaining about why we give subsidies to these companies who are making record profits. "Bush and his oil buddies"....is a familar refrain...
Are you opposed to them?
Or do you believe we should continue to provide subsidies?
Who will then pay for the exploration of oil?
yes
no
investors, capitalists and entrepreneurs
zimmie
Quote: Originally posted by VacateTheWord All three candidates have a long-term solution to energy independence. What has been missing (or rather what the Democrats in Congress keep stopping) IS short-term solutions such as increased drilling domestically and, yes, "gimmicks" like the gas tax holiday. How long do you think it will take this country to become energy independent? An honest answer will tell you why we need those short-term solutions you and your out-of-touch candidate, Barack Obama, dismiss.
As for the gas tax holiday - yes, prices will go up regardless over the summer due to increased demand. However, the net increase will be offset by the gas tax holiday - in other words, if gas is to go up 50 cents then the holiday will offset that number. Working people will have some more money in their pocket - Obama should be ashamed.
We should raise the price of gas to 6-7 dollars a gallon to pay off a portion of the debt and encourage us not to use as much...but that ain't happening...look at the furor over $4.00 a gallon gas......
zimmie
Quote: Originally posted by acefree yes
no
investors, capitalists and entrepreneurs
by investors I suppose your talking about those with the gas pump in their hand...
many people here are against the gas tax holiday because they figure "big oil" will just raise the price 18 cents a gallon...yet they somehow believe by eliminating subsidies to "big oil" that it will curb their profits.
If they are going to raise it to offset an 18 cent a gallon tax, they sure as shit will raise it to pay for exploration costs.....
mingmen
"drilling domestically is a short term strategy"
:burst: :burst: :burst: :burst: :burst: :burst:
acefree
Quote: Originally posted by zimmie by investors I suppose your talking about those with the gas pump in their hand...
many people here are against the gas tax holiday because they figure "big oil" will just raise the price 18 cents a gallon...yet they somehow believe by eliminating subsidies to "big oil" that it will curb their profits.
If they are going to raise it to offset an 18 cent a gallon tax, they sure as shit will raise it to pay for exploration costs.....
people are against the gas holiday, because they feel its only pandering to get votes, which it clearly is.
let capitalism work. dont penalize the oil companys, OR help them.
both are retarded.
VacateTheWord
Quote: Originally posted by acefree quit with the spin, please. its not needed. u can be honest and still be against obama.
"What has been missing (or rather what the Democrats in Congress keep stopping) IS short-term solutions such as increased drilling domestically"
McCain voted against drilling in anwar too. the republican candidate for president is against it, and u ignore that and blame the evil democrats. why dont u speak intelligently on each issue and each person, and quit with the blanket labeling.
im a real conservative and we dont need short term solutions for anything. the economy will fix itself. shake outs are healthy. let it seek its own level.
Oh, I'm sorry Mr. "Real" Conservative.
:rolleyes:
Look, I'm all for the free market. However, I don't see the harm in suspending the gas tax for 3 months. Again, it will keep some money in people's pockets. And I'm not touting it as a cure-all - but it's a bit of help.
And I know there are exceptions in every party, but the Democrats are the ones who have put up walls to increased domestic drilling. That is the only real short-term solution to the problem because it will take 30-40 years to reach energy independence.
And yes, I am aware of John McCain's position. I disagree with a lot of his positions. He wasn't my first choice for the Republican nominee. He wasn't my second choice. But he is what we have standing in the way of "it takes a village" Clinton. At least he has come around on making the tax cuts permanent.
Anogram
Quote: Originally posted by VacateTheWord Oh, I'm sorry Mr. "Real" Conservative.
:rolleyes:
Look, I'm all for the free market. However, I don't see the harm in suspending the gas tax for 3 months. Again, it will keep some money in people's pockets. And I'm not touting it as a cure-all - but it's a bit of help.
And I know there are exceptions in every party, but the Democrats are the ones who have put up walls to increased domestic drilling. That is the only real short-term solution to the problem because it will take 30-40 years to reach energy independence.
And yes, I am aware of John McCain's position. I disagree with a lot of his positions. He wasn't my first choice for the Republican nominee. He wasn't my second choice. But he is what we have standing in the way of "it takes a village" Clinton. At least he has come around on making the tax cuts permanent.
So McCain isn't your 1st or your 2nd choice. He is something that you must vote for. Bush logic!
jigzaw
It's silly and wouldn't work. When those taxes are passed to the oil companies, they'll just turn around and slap it right back onto the price tag plus interest. The prices of gas will go up, not down.
VacateTheWord
Quote: Originally posted by jigzaw It's silly and wouldn't work. When those taxes are passed to the oil companies, they'll just turn around and slap it right back onto the price tag plus interest. The prices of gas will go up, not down.
Given the higher demand over the summer months, the price will go up regardless.
cecilturtle06
Quote: Originally posted by VacateTheWord Given the higher demand over the summer months, the price will go up regardless.
Then by this admission, the idea of a gas tax holiday is not worth it. I don't support it, I don't see the value in it.
Anogram
Quote: Originally posted by cecilturtle06 Then by this admission, the idea of a gas tax holiday is not worth it. I don't support it, I don't see the value in it.
This is why I think Vacate is the type that will build a tent and pretend the world is dry. There is so much evidence against his opinion it still makes no difference to him.
Gary_Busey
He didn't flip flop, zimmie's delusional.
VacateTheWord
Quote: Originally posted by cecilturtle06 Then by this admission, the idea of a gas tax holiday is not worth it. I don't support it, I don't see the value in it.
No, a gas tax holiday would lessen the inevitable increase in cost due to increased demand.
The price goes up every summer. Why? Because demand goes up (people go on vacation, take more day trips, generally get out more with the nice weather) while the supply remains fixed (the refineries cannot churn out more gas). Now, that increase in price can be mitigated by suspending the gas tax for those 3 months. So if gas prices go up 50 cents due to incresed demand, then you can shave off 18 cents due to the absence of the gas tax.
Again, it's not a cure-all but it will help people out. As much of a shock as this may be to Barack Obama, there are many people who commute 50+ miles to work everyday and would save much more than the 1/2 of a tank that he says it will save.
Anogram
Quote: Originally posted by VacateTheWord No, a gas tax holiday would lessen the inevitable increase in cost due to increased demand.
The price goes up every summer. Why? Because demand goes up (people go on vacation, take more day trips, generally get out more with the nice weather) while the supply remains fixed (the refineries cannot churn out more gas). Now, that increase in price can be mitigated by suspending the gas tax for those 3 months. So if gas prices go up 50 cents due to incresed demand, then you can shave off 18 cents due to the absence of the gas tax.
Again, it's not a cure-all but it will help people out. As much of a shock as this may be to Barack Obama, there are many people who commute 50+ miles to work everyday and would save much more than the 1/2 of a tank that he says it will save.
This person needs to explain this to the majority of congress and experts who have a different opinion. He has an opinion that is simply based on anti Obama. Facts or data do not influence him.
:stretch:
Gary_Busey
Alan Greenspan figures its going to be around 25-40 dollars saved during the "holiday"
Sounds like I can packup the mini van with the kids and head off to disneyland with those kind of savings. :rolleyes:
Abba
Quote: Originally posted by VacateTheWord Oh, I'm sorry Mr. "Real" Conservative.
:rolleyes:
Look, I'm all for the free market. However, I don't see the harm in suspending the gas tax for 3 months. Again, it will keep some money in people's pockets. And I'm not touting it as a cure-all - but it's a bit of help.
And I know there are exceptions in every party, but the Democrats are the ones who have put up walls to increased domestic drilling. That is the only real short-term solution to the problem because it will take 30-40 years to reach energy independence.
And yes, I am aware of John McCain's position. I disagree with a lot of his positions. He wasn't my first choice for the Republican nominee. He wasn't my second choice. But he is what we have standing in the way of "it takes a village" Clinton. At least he has come around on making the tax cuts permanent.
$30 fucking dollars!!!! That's it. If I'm an elitist for being flippant about 30 fucking dollars, then I am. Shit, today I took my wife to see Iron Man ($30.00), Sushi for lunch ($60.00), and spent $20 on gas and tolls.
Gimme a break. Most Americans DON'T want that $30 measley bucks.
Also, we don't ahve to be instantly energy independant to lower prices. Simply announcing PLANS to become energy independant, REAL plans with money behind them, not just some vague promises, will drop the price of oil overnight.
A lowering of the artificial tensions with Iran will do the same.
It is because things have only gotten worse through purposeful actions that the goals become instantly clear. This wealth transfer is POLICY. Put aside your politics. We are ALL Americans, and we sink or swim together. Just like we DEMAND more from our condidates, you should do the same of yours.
Enough with the titanic mentality. Being in your party is like being ina suicide pact. You feel like you ahve to defend them no matter what.
You know better than that. Quit with the daily talking points and get real. If anything, Obama's the most "in touch" out of the 3 candidates. McCain must really know what it's like to live int he middle class. After all, he's eschewed his wife's millions, right?? :rolleyes:
acefree
Quote: Originally posted by VacateTheWord Oh, I'm sorry Mr. "Real" Conservative.
:rolleyes:
Look, I'm all for the free market. However, I don't see the harm in suspending the gas tax for 3 months. Again, it will keep some money in people's pockets. And I'm not touting it as a cure-all - but it's a bit of help.
And I know there are exceptions in every party, but the Democrats are the ones who have put up walls to increased domestic drilling. That is the only real short-term solution to the problem because it will take 30-40 years to reach energy independence.
And yes, I am aware of John McCain's position. I disagree with a lot of his positions. He wasn't my first choice for the Republican nominee. He wasn't my second choice. But he is what we have standing in the way of "it takes a village" Clinton. At least he has come around on making the tax cuts permanent.
what wall did the dems put up? if all the republicans voted for it, it would have passed.
" At least he has come around on making the tax cuts permanent "
please dont tell me u seriously believe this, cause as of now i still think u are bright.
mccain felt one way about this issue for 25+ years in the senate, including voting against both tax cuts recently. now he needs the republican bases votes and ALL the sudden he is for the tax cuts :rolleyes:
hey i dont blame him for saying it, cause if he doesnt he may as well quit, but a politically savvy guy like u knows it BS.
the irony is , up until 2 years ago i would have voted for mccain. cause even when i disagreed with him, i respected his integrity and good intentions. but when i see him lie, pander to the base, kiss up to bush, and kiss up to the wacko preachers, i know the man i loved is gone.
he used to be one of my favorite senators, and i still think he will be a good senator. but for president, not so much.
obama wasnt my first, or even tenth choice either.
this election sucks, its like in high school gym class when u are picking teams and all thats left is the fat kid and the retarded kid. u still gotta pick one of them for your team
Rush Has AIDS
Quote: Originally posted by VacateTheWord No, a gas tax holiday would lessen the inevitable increase in cost due to increased demand.
The price goes up every summer. Why? Because demand goes up (people go on vacation, take more day trips, generally get out more with the nice weather) while the supply remains fixed (the refineries cannot churn out more gas). Now, that increase in price can be mitigated by suspending the gas tax for those 3 months. So if gas prices go up 50 cents due to incresed demand, then you can shave off 18 cents due to the absence of the gas tax.
Again, it's not a cure-all but it will help people out. As much of a shock as this may be to Barack Obama, there are many people who commute 50+ miles to work everyday and would save much more than the 1/2 of a tank that he says it will save.
Vacate,
You continue to dodge and not respond to this fact.
The summer suspension of the gas tax will save people around $40 if they're lucky.
$40!!!
how is saving Americans $40 over 3-4 months helping anyone out? And that is money that is not going into the fund for infrastructure.
You're just not thinking rationally, and you continue to avoid having a real discussion about this.
VacateTheWord
Quote: Originally posted by Abba $30 fucking dollars!!!! That's it. If I'm an elitist for being flippant about 30 fucking dollars, then I am. Shit, today I took my wife to see Iron Man ($30.00), Sushi for lunch ($60.00), and spent $20 on gas and tolls.
Gimme a break. Most Americans DON'T want that $30 measley bucks.
Also, we don't ahve to be instantly energy independant to lower prices. Simply announcing PLANS to become energy independant, REAL plans with money behind them, not just some vague promises, will drop the price of oil overnight.
A lowering of the artificial tensions with Iran will do the same.
It is because things have only gotten worse through purposeful actions that the goals become instantly clear. This wealth transfer is POLICY. Put aside your politics. We are ALL Americans, and we sink or swim together. Just like we DEMAND more from our condidates, you should do the same of yours.
Enough with the titanic mentality. Being in your party is like being ina suicide pact. You feel like you ahve to defend them no matter what.
You know better than that. Quit with the daily talking points and get real. If anything, Obama's the most "in touch" out of the 3 candidates. McCain must really know what it's like to live int he middle class. After all, he's eschewed his wife's millions, right?? :rolleyes:
Well first of all kudos to your family that you have enough disposable income to blow over $100 on a night out - and I'm not being sarcastic.
What you don't seem to understand is that while meaningless to the likes of you and Obama, "30 measley bucks" is filling a prescription for a senior citizen. "30 measley bucks" is a pair of pants, some extra food money, whatever. There are people in this country that can't afford a $100 night out on the town - that is who this tax holiday will benefit, not to mention the truckers who pay so much for diesel fuel and those working two jobs just to get by and have long commutes (keep in mind that $30 is based on an average commute).
Sure, we need a long-term strategy for energy independence, but we also need a short-term strategy. And some people need some relief now - why not give it to them? Again, if a person commutes, say, 50 miles to work every morning, they will save more than the figures being tossed around by highbrow economists who I'm sure haven't worried about how much it will cost to fill up their tank in quite a while. I work in the automotive industry so I know all too well how higher gas prices are effecting people. Where I work, we have never been busier taking gas-guzzling SUVs off of people's hands and giving them efficient modes of transportation. People need relief - Obama needs to come off his perch for a while and find out what it is really like for a lot of people at the moment.
cecilturtle06
Something worth reading why have a "gas tax holiday" is really dumb idea.
Why a gas tax ‘holiday’ is a bad economic idea
Also: How about bringing back the 55 mph speed limit to save gas?
Quote: Eliminating the federal tax, about 18 cents a gallon, would encourage more driving, putting added pressure on supplies, and driving the underlying price of gasoline higher. Since gasoline taxes go to pay for rebuilding crumbling roads and bridges, this is probably not a good time to do away with them.
cecilturtle06
Quote: Originally posted by VacateTheWord Well first of all kudos to your family that you have enough disposable income to blow over $100 on a night out - and I'm not being sarcastic.
What you don't seem to understand is that while meaningless to the likes of you and Obama, "30 measley bucks" is filling a prescription for a senior citizen. "30 measley bucks" is a pair of pants, some extra food money, whatever. There are people in this country that can't afford a $100 night out on the town - that is who this tax holiday will benefit, not to mention the truckers who pay so much for diesel fuel and those working two jobs just to get by and have long commutes (keep in mind that $30 is based on an average commute).
Sure, we need a long-term strategy for energy independence, but we also need a short-term strategy. And some people need some relief now - why not give it to them? Again, if a person commutes, say, 50 miles to work every morning, they will save more than the figures being tossed around by highbrow economists who I'm sure haven't worried about how much it will cost to fill up their tank in quite a while. I work in the automotive industry so I know all too well how higher gas prices are effecting people. Where I work, we have never been busier taking gas-guzzling SUVs off of people's hands and giving them efficient modes of transportation. People need relief - Obama needs to come off his perch for a while and find out what it is really like for a lot of people at the moment.
So....let's say for the months of June, July, and August, the average savings is $30, which lets say divided by 12 weeks for the summer, comes to a savings of $2.50 a week. Wow, that's enough savings for me to maybe buy one 2 Liter bottle of Pepsi a week at the local Walgreens. Thanks Vacate for the huge Summer savings bonanza. :rolleyes: :td:
Uh, dumbass, Obama does know what's its like. That's why he's against this foolish idea supported by Clinton and McCain.
Quote: Obama talked about his experience with suspending the gas tax in Illinois, saying, "I voted for it. Then six months later we took a look and consumers had not benefited at all. I learned from a mistake." He explained that money from the gas tax goes into a federal fund that pays for highway projects such as bridge and road construction and that suspending the tax would eliminate thousands of construction jobs.
Rush Has AIDS
How about driving less, drive 55 more often than 75.
I know if this job comes through I will be moving closer to the office. I'll have to see the mass transit situation, but I'll worry about that when there is a reason to.
acefree
Quote: Originally posted by VacateTheWord Well first of all kudos to your family that you have enough disposable income to blow over $100 on a night out - and I'm not being sarcastic.
What you don't seem to understand is that while meaningless to the likes of you and Obama, "30 measley bucks" is filling a prescription for a senior citizen. "30 measley bucks" is a pair of pants, some extra food money, whatever. There are people in this country that can't afford a $100 night out on the town - that is who this tax holiday will benefit, not to mention the truckers who pay so much for diesel fuel and those working two jobs just to get by and have long commutes (keep in mind that $30 is based on an average commute).
Sure, we need a long-term strategy for energy independence, but we also need a short-term strategy. And some people need some relief now - why not give it to them? Again, if a person commutes, say, 50 miles to work every morning, they will save more than the figures being tossed around by highbrow economists who I'm sure haven't worried about how much it will cost to fill up their tank in quite a while. I work in the automotive industry so I know all too well how higher gas prices are effecting people. Where I work, we have never been busier taking gas-guzzling SUVs off of people's hands and giving them efficient modes of transportation. People need relief - Obama needs to come off his perch for a while and find out what it is really like for a lot of people at the moment.
people need relief? when did u became a crying weak liberal? or are u just blindly trying to defend mccain, even tho u dont really agree with him and being disingenuous like most of your other posts?
people dont need relief from the government, people need to work harder or work smarter, if they cant make ends meet. mccain and his liberal followers make me ill.
zimmie
I think the gas tax holiday of 24 cent a gallon diesel would have a small positive impact on the price of transporting consumer goods and groceries.
But as I said before, I would applaud an immediate price increase to $6 - $7 a gallon for gas and let the chips fall where they may for Americans.
Rush Has AIDS
Quote: Originally posted by zimmie I think the gas tax holiday of 24 cent a gallon diesel would have a small positive impact on the price of transporting consumer goods and groceries.
But as I said before, I would applaud an immediate price increase to $6 - $7 a gallon for gas and let the chips fall where they may for Americans.
Sounds like someone with a few oil companies in his stock portfolio
Gary_Busey
Quote: Originally posted by Rush Has AIDS How about driving less, drive 55 more often than 75.
I know if this job comes through I will be moving closer to the office. I'll have to see the mass transit situation, but I'll worry about that when there is a reason to.
or if you fill your tires an extra 2 PSI its suppose to increase millage substantially. Seriously.
Problem is most mechanics will tell you to never hyperinflate your tires but there isn't alot of science behind that.
Also don't idle your car... I do that all the time :(
MLBoros72s
Quote: Originally posted by VacateTheTurd Pandering, wordy bullshit
Do your really give a fuck about the poor? Is that why the real motto for the Republican party is "protect the rich"?
It's a shame Americans are stupid enough to fall for this tripe. It makes me sick.
Rush Has AIDS
Quote: Originally posted by Gary_Busey or if you fill your tires an extra 2 PSI its suppose to increase millage substantially. Seriously.
Problem is most mechanics will tell you to never hyperinflate your tires but there isn't alot of science behind that.
Also don't idle your car... I do that all the time :(
Wow, I didn't realize that was a really bad thing. I'm guilty of that as well.
Well, no longer.
zimmie
Quote: Originally posted by Rush Has AIDS Sounds like someone with a few oil companies in his stock portfolio
I do own some ExxonMobil and Valero stock. I find it amusing that Obama supporters don't support this idea (gimmick) for the summer months to aid truckers and motorists. I suspect if Obama was pushing it, they would be all over it. I'll be curious what effect this difference in approach has on the North Carolina and Indiana primaries. It's apparently getting some air time on TV ads.
Rush Has AIDS
Quote: Originally posted by zimmie I do own some ExxonMobil and Valero stock. I find it amusing that Obama supporters don't support this idea (gimmick) for the summer months to aid truckers and motorists. I suspect if Obama was pushing it, they would be all over it. I'll be curious what effect this difference in approach has on the North Carolina and Indiana primaries. It's apparently getting some air time on TV ads.
We're going to keep going around and around like this, yet the fact remains the same.
This is not aiding truckers and motorists. $2.50 per week is not aiding truckers and motorists.
zimmie
Quote: Originally posted by Rush Has AIDS We're going to keep going around and around like this, yet the fact remains the same.
This is not aiding truckers and motorists. $2.50 per week is not aiding truckers and motorists.
I'm not sure you could convince a owner operator tractor trailer driver who spends $800 to fill his tank that a 24 cents a gallon savings will only result in a savings of $2.50 a week......
Gary_Busey
Quote: Originally posted by zimmie I do own some ExxonMobil and Valero stock. I find it amusing that Obama supporters don't support this idea (gimmick) for the summer months to aid truckers and motorists. I suspect if Obama was pushing it, they would be all over it. I'll be curious what effect this difference in approach has on the North Carolina and Indiana primaries. It's apparently getting some air time on TV ads.
:rolleyes: someone clearly didn't get laid this weekend.
Rush Has AIDS
Quote: Originally posted by zimmie I'm not sure you could convince a owner operator tractor trailer driver who spends $800 to fill his tank that a 24 cents a gallon savings will only result in a savings of $2.50 a week......
I think you underestimate the intelligence of truck drivers. The savings on $800 is not worth it, and when the oil companies raise their prices to counter the tax, there will be no savings at all.
Rush Has AIDS
Now I just caught Hillary on CNN this morning. While she was still hocking about this stupid gas tax holiday, she did make a very good point about prices right now.
According to her, the oil price is being manipulated by energy traders who are hoarding supplies. Seems that they used to be a lot more regulated but, surprise surprise, those regulations have been lifted. And she wants to put those regulations back.
Supposedly the price for a barrel of oil right now should be around $55.
She sounded good, and made sense there.
ArivacaCharlie
OBAMA HAS NOT FLIP-FLOPPED!
He explained on Meet the Press that he has voted for a fuel tax suspension in the past and found that IT DOES NOT WORK.
Using experience as a guide (the way any Chief Executive should do), he realizes that suspending the fuel tax is a bad idea. Another misleading thread topic by the dishonest and clueless Right-wing faction of SFN.
Gary_Busey
Quote: Originally posted by Rush Has AIDS Now I just caught Hillary on CNN this morning. While she was still hocking about this stupid gas tax holiday, she did make a very good point about prices right now.
According to her, the oil price is being manipulated by energy traders who are hoarding supplies. Seems that they used to be a lot more regulated but, surprise surprise, those regulations have been lifted. And she wants to put those regulations back.
Supposedly the price for a barrel of oil right now should be around $55.
She sounded good, and made sense there.
I will give her this, her Health care plan is better thought out. realistic. That's not surprising.
But the rest of her....
DUDE-HERE
gas tax holiday is dumb and will do nothing.
acefree
Quote: Originally posted by DUDE-HERE gas tax holiday is dumb and will do nothing.
i know u dont like obama, but u were honest anyways. much respect.
you will have credibility now on other issues that u argue.
Rush Has AIDS
Has anyone here, who supports the gas tax holiday, considered how many jobs will be lost as a result as well?
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