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Steakfor2for1

Being 18 I do wonder if there ever is the possibility that I'll turn to the left. I think it's unlikely, but I'm sure the Young Republican Hillary Clinton never thought she'd end up being a socialist.

So my question is have you always been a Democrat or Republican or did you switch sides. And if you did when and why.

Halcyon

There was a time when I used to buy in to the candidates and their speeches. I was monumentally nieve then.
I used to buy into the two-party system.
That was about 10 years ago.

mingmen

yes

Stonewall

Quote: Originally posted by Steakfor2for1
Being 18 I do wonder if there ever is the possibility that I'll turn to the left. I think it's unlikely, but I'm sure the Young Republican Hillary Clinton never thought she'd end up being a socialist.

So my question is have you always been a Democrat or Republican or did you switch sides. And if you did when and why.

It depends on why you are on the "right" now.

If you have no core beliefs than switching sides is easy.

I have never been a Democrat, could never vote for a Leftist. They are against the Constitution. They have no respect for it and have no problem with the Supreme Court changing the Constitution to fulfill the Leftist agenda. If they don't like what the Democratic process has achieved they will happily expect the Court to overturn the will of the people.

mkriss5681

I was an independent moderate who has been tossed to the extreme left by the neo-con assholes running this country for the past 8 years

Abba

Please don't think I'm talking down to you. I have been on this earth for a decade and a half longer than you, though, and the sum of my experiences dwarfs yours. I do commend you, however, on your interest in Politics and current events, as evidenced by your continued presence on this board.

I used to be just like you when I was your age. I was pro-America so much that it bordered on Jingoism. I used to believe that America can do no wrong, that the statements of our leaders reflected reality, and their reasoning for their actions were based in truth.

I know better now. I used to believe, like many on this board still do into their adulthood, that to criticize America is to not be a loyal American. There is nothing further from the truth. In fact, it's PATRIOTIC to objectively view your country and to offer measured criticism. To turn a blind eye to the myriad of greedy, brutal, and hypocritical actions of our Nation is, in fact, tantamount to treason.

Being on the Right means standing up for militancy and arrogance in the world. It means subverting free peoples' democratic governments or propping up their brutal regimes for profit. It means lying to the American people and working to make their lives as difficult as possible to force their attentions away from what's happening to trying to get by.

I have an affection for innocent people. I don't want my country to cimmit virtual armed robbery from innocent people around the world, who have always looked to America with pride and adoration, simply because they ahve something underneath their land that we want.

I believe that ALL Americans deserve the best their country can deliver. I believe that government should work fopr all the people, and not just for the few with wealth, access, and power. I believe that ALL Americans shouldn't have to fear getting sick, because they could and many have lost their homes and theitr lives in the face of crushing medical bills.

I believe that our government's responsibility is to work tirelessly to raise all Americans. The government should treat our hard earned dollars with the utmost reverance, and do the utmost to ensure that every single dollar it spends is free from fraud and waste.

This is what the Left stands for. To get a clear picture of what the right stands for, you have a working example. Just look at where America is now. NONE of it can be blamed on "Democrats". The Republicunts OWNED the government for 6 years, and they enacted ALL their dream positions. How one can still support these people is beyond me.

You have many years left to formulate your opinion, my friend. The more I learned, the more my opinions changed. I imagine the same will happen for you.

mingmen

Quote: Originally posted by Stonewall
It depends on why you are on the "right" now.

If you have no core beliefs than switching sides is easy.

I have never been a Democrat, could never vote for a Leftist. They are against the Constitution. They have no respect for it and have no problem with the Supreme Court changing the Constitution to fulfill the Leftist agenda. If they don't like what the Democratic process has achieved they will happily expect the Court to overturn the will of the people.

I see you are busy criticizing both parties as usual, stupid.

:)

acefree

little brother, the current republicans are just as much socialists as hillary is.
nice buzz word tho.
where do u get your political information from?
obviuosly u are just repeating what someone told u.

CrackHead_Fan

I think this is a very good question. I can only offer my experience: I have always had the same political affiliation. I've often wondered how it came to be that I am a right-wing conservative. My parents, while registered Republican, were never really interested in politics until after I got involved. I took them to their first book-burning (see, thats a little self-deprecating humor - you won't get that from a Liberal). Seriously though, I am not overly religious (my faith is my business, nobody else's and I can't stand people who try to impose theirs on others). I'm certainly not independently wealthy. Growing up, my family was middle class (though my parents, through hard work, improved on that somewhat over the years). Still, I've worked full-time since the age of 18 and paid my own college tuition. So all the clichés don't really apply to me. And yet, my day is not complete until some hippie calls me a fascist!

My parents are still together, married over 40 years and I do feel they taught me strong values. But like I said, they were never really politically active. The only other thing I can think of is the fact that I grew up in a very military town (2 major Air Force installations, a military academy and a large Army base - a cookie to whoever figures out where). As a kid, I was fascinated by all things military. Fighter jets routinely buzzed our house, much to my delight. I remember as a kid, my dad taking me to air shows and to see the Thunderbirds perform. My teachers (public school) never pushed either political philosophy. I became interested in politics as a teenager, became active and was elected to a county office at the age of 19. I still love the game. I didn't choose the path of serving in the military, although (and probably because) I have many family members who did: My cousin just returned from his second tour in Iraq, my dad was in the Army in the early 60s and my brother served in the Navy during the first Gulf War. I was in high school at the time and was sickened when I saw students at the private liberal arts college in my town protesting that war. I recognized their right to do so, of course, but I also was quick to exercise my right to counter-demonstrate them.

Anyway, I've never shared the beliefs of the left. I understand them, but for the most part, they've always just gone against the grain of who I am. I'm not saying that's a bad thing. There are a few issues here and there that I take a traditionally-liberal position on (abortion, for example), but not many. It's just who I am. I would venture to say that you will undoubtedly change some of your views as you go through life, but not drastically. Unless something life-changing happens to you, I doubt you'll completely switch sides.

Then again, you're entering the college years and it isn't uncommon to have your mind "opened" by college professors intent on doing so (just ask Hillary). Also, look at the people on this board who couldn't answer your question without putting your beliefs down...interesting.

Citizen Sin

Aside from the work ethic I got from my dad growing up, I don't think my upbringing had too much bearing on my political stance. Having learned the value of a dollar pretty young and respecting what it takes to make it, I'll always factor that in when voting but it may not be the clincher. I actually voted for Clinton the first time, but then I was young enough then to think that he really was going to bring "change" and not just spend two years showboating and pushing us towards HillaryCare until the country got fed up and ended forty years of Democratic rule in the House and Senate. Lucky for Bill that was a mid-term election or he'd have been out on his ass too.

There's an old adage that "If you're twenty years old and not a Democrat, you don't have a heart; if you're forty years old and not a Republican, you don't have a brain." Well, I agreed with that at one time as I hit thirty and was headed towards the right but there's just no way I could fully adopt some of their ideas, particularly the Bible nonsense. As far as I'm concerned, if two gay guys want the right to lose half their shit in a divorce, they're welcome to that right. If two lesbians spend ten years raising a kid and the death of one causes the other to lose any access to the child, that's fucked up. I also support abortion. And while I haven't smoked up in years and years, I think it's way past time to legalize marijuana.

But I'll never subscribe to the nanny state philosophy that so many on the left want to bring about. The government is the least efficient entity imaginable for getting anything done. Ironically, I'm coming to appreciate that because neither of the parties's positions satisfies me so I don't want to see us swing too far either way. As soon as Bush started in with that "mandate" talk after what was really a squeaker in '04, I knew we were looking at a Democratic resurgence. But just as Billy-boy brought about a Republican landslide in '94, I'm sure that even if the Democratic candidate wins the Presidency this year, they'll alienate enough people in the middle that they won't be able to do too much damage.

Ideally, we'd have a strong centrist third party in this country (we were actually headed that way, but then Ross Perot subverted the movement and took the whole notion of a third party back to the "whacko" category). The thing that annoys me most about the current state of American politics is this "sports team mentality" that too many people adopt. They like a few things that one party says, so they automatically refuse to think that "their" team might actually be wrong about a few things and that the other might have a better take. With a strong third party, we'd cut down on a lot of this binary he said / she said stuff. But unfortunately, most people aren't into complex thinking and are fine with either staying out of politics altogether or adopting a strict partisan stance and then spending their time in front of the Bible or the idiot box.

I'm sorry - what was the question again?

NoName

How can an 18 year old be conservative? I'm socially liberal and fiscally conservative. I'm perfect and if you want to be perfect like me, this is the road you should follow..............NoName has spoken, tell the world my story.

cal!guL.A.

the neo-cons will have you think "flip-flopping" is bad. the truth is that being able to step back and analyze things objectively, learn from and acknowledge past mistakes, is a sign of extreme intelligence. i used to despise democrats. i saw them as flag burning commies, but now i understand alot of their view points in light of the current state of conservatism.

John Titor

i was born and will die an Independent ! this Obama craze has made me more proud of being a independent then ever. watching the glazed eyes of morons drooling over a muslim Socialist sickens me.

John Titor

Quote: Originally posted by Abba
Please don't think I'm talking down to you. I have been on this earth for a decade and a half longer than you, though, and the sum of my experiences dwarfs yours. I do commend you, however, on your interest in Politics and current events, as evidenced by your continued presence on this board.

I used to be just like you when I was your age. I was pro-America so much that it bordered on Jingoism. I used to believe that America can do no wrong, that the statements of our leaders reflected reality, and their reasoning for their actions were based in truth.

I know better now. I used to believe, like many on this board still do into their adulthood, that to criticize America is to not be a loyal American. There is nothing further from the truth. In fact, it's PATRIOTIC to objectively view your country and to offer measured criticism. To turn a blind eye to the myriad of greedy, brutal, and hypocritical actions of our Nation is, in fact, tantamount to treason.

Being on the Right means standing up for militancy and arrogance in the world. It means subverting free peoples' democratic governments or propping up their brutal regimes for profit. It means lying to the American people and working to make their lives as difficult as possible to force their attentions away from what's happening to trying to get by.

I have an affection for innocent people. I don't want my country to cimmit virtual armed robbery from innocent people around the world, who have always looked to America with pride and adoration, simply because they ahve something underneath their land that we want.

I believe that ALL Americans deserve the best their country can deliver. I believe that government should work fopr all the people, and not just for the few with wealth, access, and power. I believe that ALL Americans shouldn't have to fear getting sick, because they could and many have lost their homes and theitr lives in the face of crushing medical bills.

I believe that our government's responsibility is to work tirelessly to raise all Americans. The government should treat our hard earned dollars with the utmost reverance, and do the utmost to ensure that every single dollar it spends is free from fraud and waste.

This is what the Left stands for. To get a clear picture of what the right stands for, you have a working example. Just look at where America is now. NONE of it can be blamed on "Democrats". The Republicunts OWNED the government for 6 years, and they enacted ALL their dream positions. How one can still support these people is beyond me.

You have many years left to formulate your opinion, my friend. The more I learned, the more my opinions changed. I imagine the same will happen for you.

when did your nazi father teach you to hate the Jews so much ?

NoName

Quote: Originally posted by John Titor
i was born and will die an Independent ! this Obama craze has made me more proud of being a independent then ever. watching the glazed eyes of morons drooling over a muslim Socialist sickens me.

You have issues man, see a shrink immediately. Imagine having one life and spewing hate and racism. As long as we don't make fun of your jewish girlfriend , you can continue your miserable existence. My heart goes out to your loved ones (If you have any)

John Titor

Quote: Originally posted by NoName
You have issues man, see a shrink immediately. Imagine having one life and spewing hate and racism. As long as we don't make fun of your jewish girlfriend , you can continue your miserable existence. My heart goes out to your loved ones (If you have any)

lol racism where what who ? get a life :p

FulSoldierEfect

I was gonna do it but you said it all. Nice job

mingmen

Quote: Originally posted by John Titor
lol racism where what who ? get a life :p

try one of these

John Titor

my God funny all the Jew killers calling me racist . :D

Steakfor2for1

Sorry I didn't mention this before, but I do have a core belief. I believe in personal responsibility, I believe in a free market and government that does very little. The reason why I mention Hillary Clinton was because she at one point campaigned for Barry Goldwater, one of the greatest conservatives of all time. I'm a classic Republican which we now sadly refer to as a Libertarian.

So of course that means I disagree plenty with the Neo Cons, but I disagree more with Democrats. It's basically Scumbag Party vs. Scumbag Party nowadays. And as for this comment that the Neo Cons are socialists as well, that may be true in many respects I still believe the Dems will put the country to shit much quicker. This thread has depressed me so I'll leave off with profound quote.

Quote: Originally posted by Barry Goldwater
When you say “radical right” today, I think of these moneymaking ventures by fellows like Pat Robertson and others who are trying to take the Republican party and make a religious organization out of it. If that ever happens, kiss politics goodbye.

Timmy

Being 18 means you are stupid! No offense! :D

I guess you can say Ive been democratic my whole life. BUt my opinion on different issues has changed over the years.

As a youngin you tend to be influance by those around you. Later on you tend to make up your own mind.

Timmy

Quote: Originally posted by Steakfor2for1
Sorry I didn't mention this before, but I do have a core belief. I believe in personal responsibility, I believe in a free market and government that does very little. .

Do you really believe this?? Or are we talking buzzwards from some pamphlet??

I always think of really red states. They say they dont want big govt, but they are more than happy to take govt subsities for farming ect.. They will look at Hurrican Katrina and accuse the city of New Orleans of stealing federal money for rebuilding. But when a twister hits town, they are the first to line up for disaster aid. Everyone is so hypocritical.

Ill even give you a Howard spin. He'll rant and rave on how the FCC should be dispanded. BUt when his Sirius broadcast was being pirated, they sure ran to the FCC to put a stop to it.

Stonewall

Quote: Originally posted by Steakfor2for1
Sorry I didn't mention this before, but I do have a core belief. I believe in personal responsibility, I believe in a free market and government that does very little. The reason why I mention Hillary Clinton was because she at one point campaigned for Barry Goldwater, one of the greatest conservative of all time. I'm a classic Republican which we now sadly refer to as a Libertarian.

So of course that means I disagree plenty with the Neo Cons, but I disagree more with Democrats. It's basically Scumbag Party vs. Scumbag Party nowadays. And as for this comment that the Neo Cons are socialists as well, that may be true in many respects I still believe the Dems will put the country to shit much quicker. This thread has depressed me so I'll leave off with profound quote.

If you have core Conservative beliefs than I doubt that will change. Party affiliation is out the window because of what you have described them as. I agree with your thoughts on that.

The Free Market, I'm not for that at all. In the U.S., yes a free market. Outside of the U.S., no free market. America must be self sufficient. Without that then we are not free. Look at Bush running for help to the Saudis. Look at us running to help the Saudis in the 1990's. We are slaves.

My thoughts on our economy and Globalization go much further than that but this Saudi thing is a perfect example of what is wrong.

We are in for a nasty correction and a rebuilding and I hope at the end of that we fix what has failed us.

Timmy

Quote: Originally posted by mkriss5681
I was an independent moderate who has been tossed to the extreme left by the neo-con assholes running this country for the past 8 years

Is there really such a thing as a true "independent"? I always think of them as undecisive repubs or demo's who are just craving attention.

Fdubya247

Quote: Originally posted by Stonedwall
I have never been a Democrat, could never vote for a Leftist. They are against the Constitution.

Liberals inspired and wrote the Constitution.

It was an answer to the Right-Wing Authoritarianism and Tyranny of the British Empire, the Crown, and the East India Company.

Fucktard.

:rolleyes:

Stonewall

Quote: Originally posted by Fdubya247
Liberals inspired and wrote the Constitution.

It was an answer to the Right-Wing Authoritarianism of the British Empire, the Crown, and the East India Company.

Fucktard.

:rolleyes:

That is really interesting, you should write a book.

Here is a title... "The Constitution for Dummies, written by a Dummy"

:)

Fdubya247

Quote: Originally posted by Stonewall
That is really interesting, you should write a book.

Here is a title... "The Constitution for Dummies, written by a Dummy"

Only after your "Dictionary of Alternate Vocabulary Definitions" comes out.

:rolleyes:

Have you learned the meaning of "variance" yet? What about "secular"?

:drool:

rod_jammer

In high school, I was a free-market conservative (G.H.W. Bush)
In college, I was a cynical independent (Clinton w/GOP Congress)
Now, I'm a liberal, especially about social issues and foreign policy (G.W. Bush)

So, yes, political perspectives can change, typically depending on who is in office.

Steakfor2for1

Quote: Originally posted by Timmy
Do you really believe this?? Or are we talking buzzwards from some pamphlet??

I always think of really red states. They say they dont want big govt, but they are more than happy to take govt subsities for farming ect.. They will look at Hurrican Katrina and accuse the city of New Orleans of stealing federal money for rebuilding. But when a twister hits town, they are the first to line up for disaster aid. Everyone is so hypocritical.

Ill even give you a Howard spin. He'll rant and rave on how the FCC should be dispanded. BUt when his Sirius broadcast was being pirated, they sure ran to the FCC to put a stop to it.

You write as if the intentions of our forefathers were ridiculous. Yes I believe in a limited Federal Government, one that only deals with mail, military, making money, and limited interstate commerence (stop slavery, not stop Howard Stern from making fart jokes). This also includes privitizing social security and welfare, as well as corporate welfare. Besides that the states should have the rest of the responsibility.

Quote: Originally posted by Stonewall
The Free Market, I'm not for that at all. In the U.S., yes a free market. Outside of the U.S., no free market. America must be self sufficient. Without that then we are not free. Look at Bush running for help to the Saudis. Look at us running to help the Saudis in the 1990's. We are slaves.

I understand where you're coming from, but I believe in "let do" or in french Laissez-faire. You simply cannot give government too much power, or else it can become corrupt. If the government was as weak as I would want it to be, lobbies wouldn't even want control of the government.

Quote: Originally posted by Fdubya247
Liberals inspired and wrote the Constitution.

It was an answer to the Right-Wing Authoritarianism and Tyranny of the British Empire, the Crown, and the East India Company.

Fucktard.

:rolleyes:

You're aware that the forefathers would be for the most part Libertarian if they were alive today, hell I'm sure even Hamilton wouldn't want a government this strong.

Stonewall

Quote: Originally posted by Steakfor2for1

I understand where you're coming from, but I believe in "let do" or in french Laissez-faire. You simply cannot give government too much power, or else it can become corrupt. If the government was as weak as I would want it to be, lobbies wouldn't even want control of the government.

[/B]

I would not give the government more power.

Fdubya247

Quote: Originally posted by Steakfor2for1
You're aware that the forefathers would be for the most part Libertarian if they were alive today,

:rolleyes:

Timmy

Who gives a shit what the forefathers thought. They would freak out if they saw a bic lighter! We aint in 1776, the world is a far more complicated place.

Abba

Quote: Originally posted by John Titor
my God funny all the Jew killers calling me racist . :D

Jew killers, huh......
Okay, dickwad. That's some kind of fierce argumentation you got there.

Rush Has AIDS

Wow...

Not one ounce of truth in that statement.

Rush Has AIDS

There's a Muslim running? Who?

Rush Has AIDS

Quote: Originally posted by Steakfor2for1
Sorry I didn't mention this before, but I do have a core belief. I believe in personal responsibility, I believe in a free market and government that does very little. The reason why I mention Hillary Clinton was because she at one point campaigned for Barry Goldwater, one of the greatest conservatives of all time. I'm a classic Republican which we now sadly refer to as a Libertarian.

So of course that means I disagree plenty with the Neo Cons, but I disagree more with Democrats. It's basically Scumbag Party vs. Scumbag Party nowadays. And as for this comment that the Neo Cons are socialists as well, that may be true in many respects I still believe the Dems will put the country to shit much quicker. This thread has depressed me so I'll leave off with profound quote.

I was a moderate Republican growing up. Socially liberal, fiscally Conservative. My Dad was more of a lefty and my mom was more Conservative.

As a child in the 80's I was easily influenced by the Reagan years, I didn't know better. I voted for Bush Sr twice, then voted for Dole (I know).

In 2000 I was a big supporter of John McCain, he was the right man at the time, and then Bush & his cronies did a hatchet job on him, telling lies about McCain that the people of South Carolina believed, and it de-railed his campaign. Basically, they were telling the folks there that McCain had an illegitimate black child, but the truth was that he had adopted a baby girl from Bangladesh (I think)!

I mean with all the phony talk about being "pro-life" and "pro-family", here was a man who had done something so noble and so right, and there's Bush painting him as something completely different.

You may not have known about this event, sounds like you were 9 or 10 years old at the time, so you wouldn't have known about it. That's the kind of man that Crackhead, Zimmie, Vacate, NCMike, Titor, blindly support. That's their guy

Not me. I was not going to vote Republican in 2000, and after Bush was appointed by the Supreme Court I left the party completely. I've been registered independent ever since.

Goldwater was a true Conservative, especially for those times. But if you compared his views to what the Republican party stands for now, do you think he would be associated with them now? Hell no, like you said probably a Libertarian.

Interesting that the daughters of Barry Goldwater and his running mate, are both Democrats now.

Gotta cut this short. Anyway, my best advice to you is this. Be skeptical of all politicians. Educate yourself in language, and really learn to listen. And keep in mind that while you may have had a decent upbringing, there are many many more who have not, who do not have access to the same opportunities as you.

I'm all for personal responsibility, but criticize people who become President on that slogan and don't live up to it.

AcquiringSignal

No I have voted for both parties... I voted for George Bush Sr - Then Clinton twice and I Proud of my 2 choices - Then I didn't vote, but I thought hey why not get another Republican when GW Bush came around... But Honestly Gore was fine too. I really didnt have much of opinion then.

wow was I wrong and I think allot of people who were fooled by GW Bush and this era of Republicans. What they said they would do and want to be like in 1998/2000 era and what they really were after they had all 4 branches of government, its really disgusting and honestly they have ruined the Republican Brand for decades.

Now I wont ever vote republican - since cable news and talking point bumper sticker lies... I actually like the truth and or someone with morals or enough morals to not be anything like I have seen in the last decade.

acefree

too many logical fallacies to even respond.
and i wouldnt try to convince beetlejuice that 1+1 isnt 37 either.
its disappointing cause i thought u were brighter then beetlejuice. but u only type better.

Steakfor2for1

Quote: Originally posted by Timmy
Who gives a shit what the forefathers thought. They would freak out if they saw a bic lighter! We aint in 1776, the world is a far more complicated place.

You know that is one of the stupidest statements I've read today Timmy. Does that mean the we should ignore the works of Aristotle? Hey Marx would shit his pants as well if he found something as crazy as the internet.

Fact is our forefathers were heavily inspired by the philosophy of the past, and to think that we can come to our own conclusions without looking to the past is moronic. But hey I doubt George W Bush looks back to history and philosophy when determining things, so I guess that's just the new way of thinking :o.

Froggy

i was born a democrat, went republican when i moved to NJ and owned property - property taxes can do that to you. when i moved back into Manhattan I resumed my liberal / conservative democratic position.

Citizen Sin

Quote: Originally posted by Rush Has AIDS
Not me. I was not going to vote Republican in 2000, and after Bush was appointed by the Supreme Court I left the party completely. I've been registered independent ever since.

Educate yourself in language, and really learn to listen.

I'm having problems reconciling your so-called independent stance with your knee-jerk Michael Moore follower stance. It also doesn't help that while you tell people to "educate" themselves, at the same time you repeat that nonsense about Bush being "appointed" by the Supreme Court.

The US Supreme Court was just doing the job the Florida Supreme Court should have done. But even if they'd let the actions of the Florida Supreme Court go uncontested, Bush still would have won, another thing you've apparently left yourself "uneducated" about :

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/fl...ories/main.html

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A comprehensive study of the 2000 presidential election in Florida suggests that if the U.S. Supreme Court had allowed a statewide vote recount to proceed, Republican candidate George W. Bush would still have been elected president.

On December 12, 2000, the U.S. Supreme Court overturned a Florida Supreme Court ruling ordering a full statewide hand recount of all undervotes not yet tallied. The U.S. Supreme Court action effectively ratified Florida election officials' determination that Bush won by a few hundred votes out of more than 6 million cast.

Using the NORC data, the media consortium examined what might have happened if the U.S. Supreme Court had not intervened. The Florida high court had ordered a recount of all undervotes that had not been counted by hand to that point. If that recount had proceeded under the standard that most local election officials said they would have used, the study found that Bush would have emerged with 493 more votes than Gore.

Suppose that Gore got what he originally wanted -- a hand recount in heavily Democratic Broward, Palm Beach, Miami-Dade and Volusia counties. The study indicates that Gore would have picked up some additional support but still would have lost the election -- by a 225-vote margin statewide.

Citizen Sin

Quote: Originally posted by Timmy
Is there really such a thing as a true "independent"? I always think of them as undecisive repubs or demo's who are just craving attention.

If that's what you think, then you really should think a little harder. There's a vast middle ground between the two extremes that a candidate has to appeal to in order to receive his party's nomination. That middle ground isn't really being served by either party right now, no matter how many people buy into this simple-minded lockstep "Dems good Pubs bad" (or vice versa) nonsense.

But I guess you know more than Jim Jeffords or Joe Lieberman. Attention whores, both of them... right?

Rush Has AIDS

Quote: Originally posted by Citizen Sin
I'm having problems reconciling your so-called independent stance with your knee-jerk Michael Moore follower stance. It also doesn't help that while you tell people to "educate" themselves, at the same time you repeat that nonsense about Bush being "appointed" by the Supreme Court.

The US Supreme Court was just doing the job the Florida Supreme Court should have done. But even if they'd let the actions of the Florida Supreme Court go uncontested, Bush still would have won, another thing you've apparently left yourself "uneducated" about :

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/fl...ories/main.html

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A comprehensive study of the 2000 presidential election in Florida suggests that if the U.S. Supreme Court had allowed a statewide vote recount to proceed, Republican candidate George W. Bush would still have been elected president.

On December 12, 2000, the U.S. Supreme Court overturned a Florida Supreme Court ruling ordering a full statewide hand recount of all undervotes not yet tallied. The U.S. Supreme Court action effectively ratified Florida election officials' determination that Bush won by a few hundred votes out of more than 6 million cast.

Using the NORC data, the media consortium examined what might have happened if the U.S. Supreme Court had not intervened. The Florida high court had ordered a recount of all undervotes that had not been counted by hand to that point. If that recount had proceeded under the standard that most local election officials said they would have used, the study found that Bush would have emerged with 493 more votes than Gore.

Suppose that Gore got what he originally wanted -- a hand recount in heavily Democratic Broward, Palm Beach, Miami-Dade and Volusia counties. The study indicates that Gore would have picked up some additional support but still would have lost the election -- by a 225-vote margin statewide.

For every report you give saying Bush would have won, I can you another saying Bush would have lost. And there are the undeniable actions taken against voters in Democratic leaning districts of Florida, particularly the caging and then the purging of the voter rolls. Further more there is evidence that Diebold had "problems" with their voting machines as well.

And FYI, I do not agree with everything Michael Moore says, but he has been on the mark about a lot of things. Unlike you, I'm willing to consider other points of view before I make an assessment. At the very least I'll have an opinion, and be open to hearing new evidence to the contrary. You're more than welcome to try and change my mind.

You, on the other hand, would wail about liberal conspiracies if the GOP told you that the sky has always been green.

Yes Citizen, educate yourself. You need it badly.

FulSoldierEfect

Quote: Originally posted by John Titor
my God funny all the Jew killers calling me racist . :D

Ya know what fucktard! You are shit, will always be shit and know absolutely shit about nothing. You can take your Jewish G/F and shove her up your ass! The fact that you fornicate with a Jew doesn't give you the right to be the self-imposed Jewish defender you think you are.

I have been here and in other threads that you have made a total jackass out of yourself, with your baseless accusations, deflection and melodramatic ranting. I have yet to see you post one thing of meaning or importance. I hope your Jewish G/F smartens up and leaves your ass, maybe she could do us a favor and kill you, you waste of skin.

As for your "Jew killers" remark about all the people posting against you and showing you for the fool you are. Am I included in that group? It would sure be something for my Jewish WIFE to giggle over.

FulSoldierEfect

Well he has been on and yet he is strangely silent. You fucking cum wad!

chicagoirishtim

I grew up in a conservative house in liberal Chicago and remember in high school how I thought impeaching Clinton was a good thing and everyone in my history class pretty much disagreed. I had no clue what I was talking about, but my old man hated Clinton and always trashed him, I didn’t get along with my dad but I heard him talk bout it and kind of agreed, because he was a lawyer and made good points about it. Now I couldn’t disagree more. I remember when I was 21 right before the occupation of Iraq began and I considered myself an independent, liberal on social issues and fiscally responsible. Never mind that I made minimum wage and had no money so I’m not sure that made any sense either. I also supported the war but didn’t enlist and I had friends that did, and have since died, so I was the ultimate chicken hawk.

Now I’m a proud liberal, progressive whatever, I don’t think liberal is a bad word in fact I like it. I vote for 3rd party candidates when an election wont be close in local elections and for Democrats in national elections, even though they make me sick. I voted for Cal Skinner a libertarian for Illinois governor a few years back because I knew a Dem would win, then I voted for a Democrat governor in Wisconsin because it was close between him and a neo-con Republican. I won’t vote for Governor Greigore this year in Washington and I wont vote Republican even though it’s a good chance that the righty will win.

spankysxxx

Republican until George W. Bush. Never swallowed his shit. The NEOCONS would consider that
flip-flopping traditionally but their fearless leader is now using terms like "adapt" a lot.

spankysxxx

Quote: Originally posted by Steakfor2for1

You're aware that the forefathers would be for the most part Libertarian if they were alive today, hell I'm sure even Hamilton wouldn't want a government this strong.

...as strict constitutionalists ala Ron Paul. However, I don't think the NEOCONS would allow them
to hang around too long given their complete disrespect for the constitution.

Timmy

Quote: Originally posted by Steakfor2for1
You know that is one of the stupidest statements I've read today Timmy. Does that mean the we should ignore the works of Aristotle? Hey Marx would shit his pants as well if he found something as crazy as the internet.

Fact is our forefathers were heavily inspired by the philosophy of the past, and to think that we can come to our own conclusions without looking to the past is moronic. But hey I doubt George W Bush looks back to history and philosophy when determining things, so I guess that's just the new way of thinking :o.

We dont have to ignore them, but we dont have to treat them like infallable gods. It doesnt really matter what George Washington would have thought about drilling in ANWAR cause he probably couldnt fathom the nation as it stands today.

Stonewall

Quote: Originally posted by Timmy
We dont have to ignore them, but we dont have to treat them like infallable gods. It doesnt really matter what George Washington would have thought about drilling in ANWAR cause he probably couldnt fathom the nation as it stands today.

The understanding that the forefathers had as to what meanings were given to ideas expressed in the Constitution, what they meant by specific language used in the Constitution, those things must be followed. Because the people adopted the Constitution based on knowing what it meant. They may have rejected it if it did not suit them. That understanding must remain unless an amendment later adopted changed the original understanding.

That is very important if we wish to keep the 'government by the people'.

We have allowed the National Government to begin the destruction of that idea. We are in the beginning stages of 'government by the government'. Where they can expand their power and create new meanings of what the forefathers adopted. What they set in stone is now a fluid.

That is very dangerous even if the majority agrees with the expansion or the new meaning.

Reverend Tyler

I was a hardcore Republican in high school until I started working out all the anger issues I had and then I started seeing the reality of situations and it devastated my world view. The full switch took about 3 or 4 years.

Timmy

Quote: Originally posted by Stonewall
The understanding that the forefathers had as to what meanings were given to ideas expressed in the Constitution, what they meant by specific language used in the Constitution, those things must be followed. Because the people adopted the Constitution based on knowing what it meant.

Great. Why dont we ask henry Ford what he thinks about the 2008 mustang! "IT DOESNT MATTA". They created a government with the ability to change. And change it has.

Stonewall

Quote: Originally posted by Timmy
Great. Why dont we ask henry Ford what he thinks about the 2008 mustang! "IT DOESNT MATTA". They created a government with the ability to change. And change it has.

That is very sad.

Monster_Zero

Yes... I've been a Libertarian since I first heard of this orientation.

Ron Paul '88!! :cool:

Timmy

Quote: Originally posted by Stonewall
That is very sad.

Why is it sad? Its a good thing. Thats why America has lasted.

Stonewall

Quote: Originally posted by Timmy
Why is it sad? Its a good thing. Thats why America has lasted.

America has not lasted because the government can pick and choose what powers it has.

If you believe the government can do anything then don't be upset when they shut down freedoms that the people have clearly spelled out for themselves and prohibited the government from infringing upon. Just be happy.

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