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North Pole could be ice-free this summer, scientists say
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| North Pole could be ice-free this summer, scientists say
- Click HERE to go to the original thread with graphics
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| pluckinstrings |
Nothing to see here ladies and gentlemen. Move along...
(CNN) -- The North Pole may be briefly ice-free by September as global warming melts away Arctic sea ice, according to scientists from the National Snow and Ice Data Center in Boulder, Colorado.
"We kind of have an informal betting pool going around in our center and that betting pool is 'does the North Pole melt out this summer?' and it may well," said the center's senior research scientist Mark Serreze.
It's a 50-50 bet that the thin Arctic sea ice, which was frozen last autumn, will completely melt away at the geographic North Pole, Serreze said.
The ice retreated to a record level in September when the Northwest Passage -- the sea route through the Arctic Ocean -- opened up briefly for the first time in recorded history.
"What we've seen through the past few decades is the Arctic sea ice cover is becoming thinner and thinner as the system warms up," Serreze said.
Specific weather patterns will determine whether the North Pole's ice cover melts completely this summer, he said.
"Last year, we had sort of a perfect weather pattern to get rid of ice to open up that Northwest Passage," Serreze said. "This year, a different pattern can set up so maybe we'll preserve some ice there. We're in a wait-and-see mode right now. We'll see what happens."
The brief lack of ice at the top of the globe will not bring any immediate consequences, he said.
"From the viewpoint of the science, the North Pole is just another point in the globe, but it does have this symbolic meaning," Serreze said. "There's supposed to be ice at the North Pole. The fact that we may not have any by the end of this summer could be quite a symbolic change."
Serreze said it's "just another indicator of the disappearing Arctic sea ice cover" but that it is happening so soon is "just astounding to me."
"Five years ago, to think that we'd even be talking about the possibility of the North Pole melting out in the summer, I would have never thought it," he said.
The melting, however, has been long seen as inevitable, he said.
"If you talked to me or other scientists just a few years ago, we were saying that we might lose all or most of the summer sea ice cover by anywhere from 2050 to 2100," Serreze said. "Then, recently, we kind of revised those estimates, maybe as early as 2030. Now, there's people out there saying it might be even before that. So, things are happening pretty quick up there."
Serreze said those who suggest the Arctic meltdown is just part of a historic cycle are wrong.
"It's not cyclical at this point. I think we understand the physics behind this pretty well," he said. "We've known for at least 30 years, from our earliest climate models, that it's the Arctic where we'd see the first signs of global warming.
"It's a situation where we hate to say we told you so, but we told you so," he said.
Serreze said the Arctic sea ice will not be the same for decades.
"If we had a few cold years in a row, we could put sort of a temporary damper on it, but I think at this point going to an ice-free Arctic Ocean is inevitable," he said. "I don't think we can stop that now."
Reduced greenhouse gas emissions could "cool things down a bit," he said.
"It would recover fairly quickly, but it's just not going to happen for a while," he said. "I think we're committed at this point."
There are some positive aspects to the ice melting, he said. Ships could use the Northwest Passage to save time and energy by no longer having to travel through the Panama Canal or around Cape Horn.
"There's also, or course, oil at the bottom of the Arctic Ocean," he said. "Now, the irony of that is kind of clear but the fact that we are opening up the Arctic Ocean does make it more accessible."
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/weath...ting/index.html |
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| Reverend Tyler |
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| CrackHead_Fan |
| Boulder, CO makes Berkeley look like....well...a very conservative city. |
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| Emotional friend |
Quote: Originally posted by CrackHead_Fan
Boulder, CO makes Berkeley look like....well...a very conservative city. |
Great college party town. Hot chicks out the ass. Good herb. Great location for fun. Stay away if your conservative. You might have a fun time, and possibly have sex with a woman. |
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| Luther |
| I guess this means we should soon be under seawater. |
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| Jackie's Career |
Quote: Originally posted by pluckinstrings
North Pole could be ice-free this summer, scientists say |
Hopefully these are the same scientists who assured us the hurricane seasons immediately following Katrina would be even worse. If so we can look forward to twice as much ice at the North Pole.
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| pluckinstrings |
What would it take to change your energy consumption routine??
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| deidler |
| How do you conserve energy? We'll ignore the fact that you aren't cutting back on electricity. |
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| Bist Meshugeh |
Quote: Originally posted by Luther
I guess this means we should soon be under seawater. |
Fuck I live in the city, I better move to the poconos. :drown:
So its going to stop being cold at the North Pole? |
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| IF 6 WAS 9 |
Quote: Originally posted by Bist Meshugeh
So its going to stop being cold at the North Pole? |
Are you kidding me? |
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| Bumscum |
Quote: Originally posted by pluckinstrings
What would it take to change your energy consumption routine??
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you own 2 sirius radios-----you couldn't have made do with 1?
how much energy was wasted to make that 2nd radio you didn't really need? |
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| NC-Stern-Mark |
| Yeah, WTF happened to sea levels rising to catastrophic levels if that ice melted??? |
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| Billyfromsphily |
Quote: Originally posted by NC-Stern-Mark
Yeah, WTF happened to sea levels rising to catastrophic levels if that ice melted??? |
It evaporated! |
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| Luther |
Quote: Originally posted by Billyfromsphily
It evaporated! |
That is logical. If global warming is real, we would expect to see warming around the entire globe. For all the water that the oceans are gaining from melted ice at the poles, water is evaporating at the equator, so the sea level remains stable. |
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| Fdubya247 |
| Snow and ice "evaporates" too. |
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| Luther |
Quote: Originally posted by Fdubya247
Snow and ice "evaporates" too. |
Solid, liquid, then gas, or gas, liquid, then solid. Water (H20) does not skip from solid to gas or gas to solid. Snow and ice have to melt first, then they can evaporate. |
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| mingmen |
Quote: Originally posted by Luther
Solid, liquid, then gas, or gas, liquid, then solid. Water (H20) does not skip from solid to gas or gas to solid. Snow and ice have to melt first, then they can evaporate. |
I don't think that is true.
"Whenever a solid goes directly to the gaseous condition
-- without first melting -- the process is called sublimation. As you already
know, dry ice can do this. So can solid iodine, naphthalene (moth balls),
paradichlorobenzene (moth crystals), camphor, menthol, and other compounds as
well.
Ordinarily, ice melts before it becomes a gas. Nevertheless, ice can
"evaporate"-- sublime -- just as your father says. Though it does not
occur all
that often, when the humidity is low and the temperature is just below
freezing, even snow (which is ice) can also sublime. Ice will sublime if
placed in a vacuum, even if the temperature is well below freezing". |
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| Fdubya247 |
Quote: Originally posted by Luther
Solid, liquid, then gas, or gas, liquid, then solid. Water (H20) does not skip from solid to gas or gas to solid. Snow and ice have to melt first, then they can evaporate. |
Sublimation of an element or compound is a transition from the solid to gas phase with no intermediate liquid stage......
....Snow and other water ices also sublime, although more slowly, at below-freezing temperatures.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublim...%28chemistry%29
Evaporation proves ice on Mars, scientists say
David Perlman, Chronicle Science Editor
Saturday, June 21, 2008
A month after the remarkable spacecraft named Phoenix landed on Mars, elated earthbound scientists reported Friday that their robot digging tool has uncovered chunks of real ice there - the first hard evidence that water exists on the Red Planet.
And although it's ice that evaporates swiftly in the dry, frigid Martian climate, the evidence shows that a vast ocean of liquid water must have once covered the low-lying northern plains where Phoenix now probes the planet's surface, the scientists said.....
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/artic.../MNNB11CKRG.DTL
more: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...%3F&btnG=Search
:dontknow: |
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| Fdubya247 |
| Ice cubes will "sublime" in your fridge's freezer. |
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| Timmy |
History has shown us that the earth goes thru stages when the northen passage is open and then closed for years.
Why does everyone act as if the earth is constant? Weve had ice ages ya know! |
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| Luther |
Quote: Originally posted by mingmen
I don't think that is true.
"Whenever a solid goes directly to the gaseous condition
-- without first melting -- the process is called sublimation. As you already
know, dry ice can do this. So can solid iodine, naphthalene (moth balls),
paradichlorobenzene (moth crystals), camphor, menthol, and other compounds as
well.
Ordinarily, ice melts before it becomes a gas. Nevertheless, ice can
"evaporate"-- sublime -- just as your father says. Though it does not
occur all
that often, when the humidity is low and the temperature is just below
freezing, even snow (which is ice) can also sublime. Ice will sublime if
placed in a vacuum, even if the temperature is well below freezing". |
Quote: Originally posted by Fdubya247
Sublimation of an element or compound is a transition from the solid to gas phase with no intermediate liquid stage......
....Snow and other water ices also sublime, although more slowly, at below-freezing temperatures.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublim...%28chemistry%29
Evaporation proves ice on Mars, scientists say
David Perlman, Chronicle Science Editor
Saturday, June 21, 2008
A month after the remarkable spacecraft named Phoenix landed on Mars, elated earthbound scientists reported Friday that their robot digging tool has uncovered chunks of real ice there - the first hard evidence that water exists on the Red Planet.
And although it's ice that evaporates swiftly in the dry, frigid Martian climate, the evidence shows that a vast ocean of liquid water must have once covered the low-lying northern plains where Phoenix now probes the planet's surface, the scientists said.....
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/artic.../MNNB11CKRG.DTL
more: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...%3F&btnG=Search
:dontknow: |
Well, I know some compounds can sublimate, but I did not know that H20 could in natural Earthly conditions. I guess it must be quite rare. |
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| Luther |
Quote: Originally posted by Timmy
History has shown us that the earth goes thru stages when the northen passage is open and then closed for years.
Why does everyone act as if the earth is constant? Weve had ice ages ya know! |
And when it happened before mass drownings did not result. |
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| NC-Stern-Mark |
Quote: Originally posted by Luther
Well, I know some compounds can sublimate, but I did not know that H20 could in natural Earthly conditions. I guess it must be quite rare. |
I thought you were some kind of super-genius! How did you not know this? :( |
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| Luther |
Quote: Originally posted by NC-Stern-Mark
I thought you were some kind of super-genius! How did you not know this? :( |
I did know about sublimation, I just didn't know that water in the natural conditions of Earth was subject to it. In fact, I am still not convinced that it does. Vacuums and freezers do not replicate any part of Earth's environment. Almost certainly sublimation does not occur at the North Pole, the subject of this thread, because that is one of the most humid regions on the planet. |
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| Monster_Zero |
| Win Luther's money!! :) |
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| mingmen |
Quote: Originally posted by Luther
I did know about sublimation, I just didn't know that water in the natural conditions of Earth was subject to it. In fact, I am still not convinced that it does. |
the ice cubes get smaller over time in your freezer |
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| A mysterius man |
| Sublime was a good band. |
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| cunning lingo |
Quote: Originally posted by mingmen
the ice cubes get smaller over time in your freezer |
Depends on the type of freezer... |
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| Luther |
Quote: Originally posted by mingmen
the ice cubes get smaller over time in your freezer |
Right, because electromagnetic energy is used to create an ultra-low humidity environment within the freezer. |
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| mingmen |
Quote: Originally posted by cunning lingo
Depends on the type of freezer... |
elaborate |
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| mingmen |
| doesn't colder air hold less moisture anyway? |
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| Bist Meshugeh |
Quote: Originally posted by Luther
That is logical. If global warming is real, we would expect to see warming around the entire globe. For all the water that the oceans are gaining from melted ice at the poles, water is evaporating at the equator, so the sea level remains stable. |
And why is that a bad thing :scratch: |
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| Luther |
Quote: Originally posted by Bist Meshugeh
And why is that a bad thing :scratch: |
Ask Al Gore, he seems to think he knows. |
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| mingmen |
| why do you think they had to phase out freon? :idea: |
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| cunning lingo |
Quote: Originally posted by mingmen
elaborate |
Frost free, or not frost free....Would you not find a difference? |
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| mingmen |
Quote: Originally posted by cunning lingo
Frost free, or not frost free....Would you not find a difference? |
it has never even crossed my mind. I thought ice sublimated everywhere...just at different rates depending on the atmosphere :dontknow: |
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| rod_jammer |
Quote: Originally posted by CrackHead_Fan
Boulder, CO makes Berkeley look like....well...a very conservative city. |
I can point to great liberal centers like SF, NYC, Chicago, Boston, Boulder, Seattle, Austin...
I would love to hear you name one cool conservative city. |
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| mingmen |
| Snow and other water ices also sublime, although more slowly, at below-freezing temperatures. This phenomenon, used in freeze drying, allows wet cloth to be hung outdoors in freezing weather and retrieved later in a dry state (although strong sunshine is required to drive the process). |
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| rod_jammer |
Quote: Originally posted by mingmen
it has never even crossed my mind. I thought ice sublimated
everywhere...just at different rates depending on the atmosphere :dontknow: |
It depends on the pressure. Water could sublimate at low enough pressure. |
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| mingmen |
Quote: Originally posted by rod_jammer
It depends on the pressure. Water could sublimate at low enough pressure. |
I forgot about that triple point :yes: |
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| Jackie's Career |
Quote: Originally posted by rod_jammer
I can point to great liberal centers like SF, NYC, Chicago, Boston, Boulder, Seattle, Austin...
I would love to hear you name one cool conservative city. |
That obviously depends on your own definition of "cool'. I personally wouldn't consider Boston or Austin to be "cool" cities. I've spent time in both and, as a Jersey guy, found both extremely boring.
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| Fdubya247 |
Quote: Originally posted by mingmen
I forgot about that triple point :yes: |
...I think anywhere there is ice/snow at 0* and lower, there is some rate of sublimation, whether it be on Mars, in the Alps, or your fridge:
Sublimation accounts for the slow mid-winter disappearance of ice and snow at temperatures too low to cause melting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_vapor
I remember half-hearing an interview about this: Every molecule of vaporized water/ice/snow retains a measure of kinetic energy (heat from the process of vaporization itself), so the more evaporation/sublimation going on, the more energy building in our atmosphere, and the more extreme the weather....:
Evaporation/sublimation
Whenever a water molecule leaves a surface, it is said to have evaporated. Each individual water molecule which transitions between a more associated (liquid) and a less associated (vapor/gas) state does so through the absorption or release of kinetic energy. The aggregate measurement of this kinetic energy transfer is defined as thermal energy...
When water vapor condenses onto a surface, a net warming occurs on that surface.[6] The water molecule brings a parcel of heat with it. In turn, the temperature of the atmosphere drops slightly.[7] [8] In the atmosphere, condensation produces clouds, fog and precipitation....
Water vapor in Earth's atmosphere
Gaseous water represents a small but environmentally significant constituent of the atmosphere. Approximately 99.99% of it is contained in the troposphere. The condensation of water vapor to the liquid or ice phase is responsible for clouds, rain, snow, and other precipitation, all of which count among the most significant elements of what we experience as weather. Less obviously, the latent heat of vaporization, which is released to the atmosphere whenever condensation occurs, is one of the most important terms in the atmospheric energy budget on both local and global scales. For example, latent heat release in atmospheric convection is directly responsible for powering destructive storms such as tropical cyclones and severe thunderstorms. Water vapor is also a potent greenhouse gas. ....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_vapor
:dontknow: |
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| Fdubya247 |
Quote: Originally posted by Luther
Almost certainly sublimation does not occur at the North Pole, the subject of this thread, because that is one of the most humid regions on the planet. |
Isn't high humidity just a sign of how much water vapor is in the air, or amount of evaporation/sublimation going on?
Humidity is the amount of water vapor in the air.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_vapor |
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| mingmen |
| inquiring minds want to know |
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| blicknasty |
| Your acting like brainwashed idiots. Global Warming is a global tax scam. Read up on it you stupid trolls. |
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| remdeprived |
| North Pole May Be Ice-Free This Summer ... and this is why Howard needs to re-up his contract. Listening to him bitch about the amount of money it's costing him to convert his mansion into a house boat will be priceless. |
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